The real threat of energy dependence
 

You may not fully agree with the article's tone (blame the current administration for all the oil's issues), but one thing is certain: the West in general, and the USA in particular, don't have an effective strategy for dealing with Iran's nuclear ambitions while simultaneously beign addicted to imported oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/op...html?th&emc=th

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Personally, I think the NY times artical was 100% correct to blame the current administration for the rising power of terrorist-run oil producing nations. He's had five years to develop some sort of plan. All he's done is bribe the oil industry witha multi-billion dollar chunk of OUR money, suggest turning our national parks into oil refineries, and posit coal as the "fuel of the future". I still remember him Campaigning in 2000, and citing the allegedly sky-high gas prices ($1.25/ gallon) while at the same time dismissing conservation and hybrid technology (which he pronounced "gazlektrick " hybrid). I wish the folks on the right would realize that GWB just doesn't give a **** about our country or its citizens.. If you want a decent Republican in the white house then vote for McCain in 2008.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

I agree with your feelings. However, I wanted to start a thread that was as non-partisan as possible... difficult to achieve, I know, given the current administration's disregard for the obvious... that you can't fight terrorism while simultaneously are providing them with money.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Unless terrorism was invented in the year 2000, then the current administration has nothing to do with enhancing the problem.

Seems like we had gotten attacked by some Saudi nationals sometime before 2000 also, if I recall.

There were ridiculously rich Arabs before 2000, as I recall, just like now.

And there were gasoline vehicles, too, I think, just like now.

And there was a dearth of good alternatives to oil and gas in our future, too, just like now. Clinton had 8 years to plan for the future too.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

My intention when I started the thread, was not to create yet another partisan scuffle in this forum.

The point I'm trying to discuss, in a non-partisan and inteligent manner, is that energy conservation is a key national security issue.

If not, we will be hostage to rogue countries. Like Iran, which on one hand are developing nuclear capabilities, and in the other they have what the western world really craves: Oil.
What credible leverage do we have against Iran? What if Hugo Chavez decides tomorrow to follow the same path?

They are sworn enemies of the USA, yet we can't wean them out.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Imagine for a second what the middle-east would be like if oil money did not flow to the region. It's a region plagued with instability to begin with. Throw poverty and desperation into the mix (I know both are there now, but at least oil keeps some money in the region). It's a frightning thought if you think about it.

The fact that this world is dependent oil makes us all drug-addicts to the oil producing nations. How many of you know drug addicts that can successfully control their dealers? You cannot on one hand be dependent on something and on the other try to exercise control over the one providing it.

The world needs a plan on what our society will look like without oil. If we don't find a way for oil-producing contries to succeed without oil, we'll have anarchy. I'm not happy with any recent leader/President's efforts on this front. I tell you, I'd vote for a circus monkey for President if I thought they had a viable plan to lead this world into the next 50 years. Well, maybe not a circus monkey, but you get the point. ;)

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

I don't think we need a strategy. Does anyone remember when Iraq started building a reactor back in 1981 and Israel bombed them back into the stone age??

Well, IMHO, it think this is going to happen again. So not to worry.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...522978,00.html

Sorry to say but I'm sure it will stir up a hornet's nest of terrorist activity but what's the alternative?

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

I suspect the same thing. Basicly Israel will claim "Well, first he threatened us, now he is resuming nuke research. We did it to protect ourselves." And frankly I think most of the world will publicly complain, but secretly will have given them their blessing.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

I'm going to ask a question (a genuinely concerned question, with neither sarcasm nor irony whatsoever):
Do you think that TODAY, given the state of the oil market, that this is a feasible alternative? In the 70's right before the oil embargo, the US imported about 1/4 of its oil needs. Today it is 1/2.

In other words, the oil-producing countries have now, a much better hand on this global poker game.
That is precisely the reason why energy independence is so important. It would allow the Western world far more manuvering room.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Why blame the administration? The people still have the power (supposedly) and can reduce dependence themselves. If the last 20 years have taught America one thing it's the era of the 60s where government was responsible for social change is over. Let them buy their SUVs and gas guzzlers (my brother and sister inlaw were very excited recently because they got a great deal on their second, count them two, Tahoe). When gas goes to $10 a gallon, it's their tough luck. Tuna Helper can taste mighty good when that's all there is to eat.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

IMHO, I don't see any alternative but to try and prevent a nuclear confrontation no matter what it takes. If oil goes to $100 a barrel so be it. Maybe then the world will wake up to the fact that conservation and alternatives are the future.

Sitting here in the office 20 feet from a major state roadway watching hundreds of cars and trucks drive by each hour......each car with only one person in it -- the driver....where's everybody going?? Let's face it, we're hooked on oil.;)

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Actually, Clinton-Gore (or, to be more precise, Gore) was doing something about this...as I allayed to during my very first post on this site:

https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...l?page=2&pp=10

Funny how things come full circle


AzMerf - Yes, you successfully killed the Great Society, and you're well on your way to rescinding the New Deal. But if you think your privatized society, where the corporation is king, is an improvement...oh, hell...why do I even bother ?

If gas goes to $10/gal, that will probably mean that oil will be north of $150/bbl. If (when ?) that happens...

a. The only 'Tuna Helper' will be your sister-in-law helping your brother boat one from a rowboat - because they won't even be able to afford consumer packaged goods any longer.

What do you think is used to produce that cardboard box, the cello wrapper the food is encased in, and the procurement / processing / distribution of the food itself, from the boat that caught the fish, to the combine that harvested the wheat for the noodles (or whatever's in Tuna Helper), to the truck that delivered the box to market ? That's right - petroleum.

b. Believe me, if it gets to that point, you yourself will be greatly impacted, hybrid car or no.

That's what kills me about Repugs - everything in their world ends at the tip of their upturned nose.

tbaleno - you are not far from the truth. Word has been circulating that Israel is getting ready for another reactor run, with the implicit approval of (and covert help from) key Western powers. However, I'm not sure Israel is the best candidate for this, as with the current hostilities in the mideast, it may trigger a (semi-)global arab uprising against them - at which point, we must assist. With our military in its current exhausted / depleted state, I am not optimistic for the future, if this comes to pass.

But...maybe it's time to reap the whirlwind we've been sowing these many years. Better get into survivalist mode, eh ?

Schadenfreude...

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

They are already on an uprising against them!kevin



[QUOTE=Reynolds
tbaleno - you are not far from the truth. Word has been circulating that Israel is getting ready for another reactor run, with the implicit approval of (and covert help from) key Western powers. However, I'm not sure Israel is the best candidate for this, as with the current hostilities in the mideast, it may trigger a (semi-)global arab uprising against them - at which point, we must assist. With our military in its current exhausted / depleted state, I am not optimistic for the future, if this comes to pass.

But...maybe it's time to reap the whirlwind we've been sowing these many years. Better get into survivalist mode, eh ?

Schadenfreude...[/QUOTE]

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Sir...I am not talking about isolated attacks by Al Qaeda or rock throwers in Palestine.

I'm talking about the full brunt / force of Arab nations, many of them with equipment which we supplied to them, and trained them how to use.

Actual war. On a global scale.

If that happens, 'peak oil' won't occur. Because life as we know it will not end due to the exhaustion of the supply - but the interruption of its continued delivery.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

This is all true. I simply stated that the President has done absolutely nothing to obviate these problems. And because he has done nothing, the problems have grown worse.:confused:

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

AshenGrey - thank you. I had forgotten to rebut lars-ss ' post...

>>> Unless terrorism was invented in the year 2000, then the current administration has nothing to do with enhancing the problem.

Ah, but they have everything to do with enhancing the problem. Or do you subscribe to the 'let's send our solders to Iraq to act as bait' way of thinking ?

>>>Seems like we had gotten attacked by some Saudi nationals sometime before 2000 also, if I recall.

And yet, we're still in bed with them six years after 15 of them acted in tandem to hijack 4 planes and kill thousands of people (note that I don't say 'September 11' - the gop has commandeered that phrase for their own). Meanwhile, they educate future generations of children via their madrassas to hate us, thanks to the kingdom of Saud which has an unholy allegiance with the mullahs in order to maintain their hold on power. Someday, that alliance will end - badly.

>>>There were ridiculously rich Arabs before 2000, as I recall, just like now.

And this is pertinent...how ? Oh, I know! We've made them richer over the last six years - so it's just a matter of degree, huh ?

>>>And there were gasoline vehicles, too, I think, just like now.

Yes, and six years later, the current sop of an 'energy awareness' policy just skims the surface of what's needed. Can't piss off the Pioneers & Rangers, y'know?

>>>And there was a dearth of good alternatives to oil and gas in our future, too, just like now. Clinton had 8 years to plan for the future too.

See my original post in this thread. We'd be well on the way to a solution by now, if the 2000 election hadn't been stolen out from under the electorate, and the legitimate winner been installed in the office. The '04, too, for that matter, although I mention that just for the sake of continuity (hey, what's five million votes betweeen friends ?)
BTW-The word 'Clinton' is like red meat to you guys, isn't it ?

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Sometimes you guys scare me.

Energy Apathy is EVERYWHERE!
 

On of my ongoing themes is the general American public wants to pretend energy will be plentyful thru their lifetime. Plenty of Republicans drive jumbo SUV's - so does Jesse Ventura - so does the chairman of the Democratic Party. John Kerry did his famous denial that he drove his wife's SUV.

I'll agree that this administration has the worst energy policy, but the Clinton administration was not much better (remember that's when jumbo SUV's got big tax breaks...)

I challenge anyone here to post solid statistics that refute my claim gas-guzzlers (sub 20mpg vehicles) are bought by a large number of Republicans and Democrats and independants.

Detroit is very worried because SUV sales have gone down a little bit - imagine the impact if people seriously went back to sedans and used trucks only as rentals or legitimate business that required it's hauling capacity. Washington would see the political climate and pass serious energy legislation. In such a situation, the energy industry would have to respond to the public or face legislations they would like even less.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Politicians emphasize what they think is important to the American people. Americans communicate what's important to them buy how we spend our money. Why should any politican take energy conservation seriously when all they need to do is see how many gas-guzzling vehicles we buy every year. The American buying public is as much to blame as anyone else.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

You would not believe how much of a liberal Democrat I am. However, nothing seems to faze this administration and frankly I believe the democratic system we knew is over. So the people have to stand up and protect themselves.

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

AzMerf - I extend my apologies to you; I can see I read your post a bit hastily, and misjudged you.

I agree with you on the republic being lost; as an aside, my permanent residency application for CA has been approved, as of last week (took just a little over a year). Tired of fighting the good fight - I'm going to live with our 'socialist neighbors to the north'. :P

Now I have to see about whether or not I can import the HCH-II into the country, or should I wait and order one when when I get over there. My preliminary research says I can bring the car over, which will be good, given the differential in pricing over there.

As I cross the border, me and my partner will look back on this country, remember what it used to stand for when we were younger, and shed a silent tear.

Then I'll remember what has become of it, and say one last time as I turn my back...

Schadenfreude...

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

Reynolds,

How hard was it to get 'permission' to move 'up there'. I was thinking of moving to Seattle, but the Vancouver area isn't too far off.

BTW, I agree with both of you. I have slowly watched our freedoms slip away. I used to show passion for it, everyone around me thought it was 'worth it'. It has been going on much longer than the past 5 years. Now everyone is starting to agree with me, but I have subdued my passion for so long, and feel the people here are still too complacent ... filled with apathy, to do anything about it. I don't blame them, you stand up for your constitutional rights, you might be thrown in jail. Then they will re-write the books so it fits thier cause and interpret it they way that suits them best. Anthem ... Farenhiet 451 ... Alas, Babylon ... we were worried of the communists coming to take us over, but the control and surveillence has happened from the inside. It makes me very sad. I want to be out before a major conflict begins. I almost feel if it continues as it is long enough, and the rest of the world doesn't destroy itself first, we might have another civil war, but this time the citizens against the government. I used to think we were the free-ist country in the world, until I started studying deeply on other countries. I found we are told we are the most free. Not the worst in the world, no, but we are no longer anything like what was intended. I don't mean to make anyone's blood get hot, or get 'flamed' by those who don't see it. It is happening, but it is a necessary evil for some and those accept it for whatever reason. This country was for you to do and feel as you please (without the harm of others) without government control and intervention. I see the exact opposite. We have a law for everything. I could get into sensitive topics but I shall refrain. It would get us no where and some are too blind to see past thier own beliefs and feel they should force it on everyone else. That is facsism. This is what our country has become based upon. I feel sick to know that is how the rest of the world sees us, and I have no arguement agaisnt it, though I wish I did, for it has become the truth. :omg: :angry: :embarass: :( :cry: :zip:

Re: The real threat of energy dependence
 

While Iran postures, the entire oil consuming planet will be impacted, not just the United States. While most of the world, especially in Europe, pay a much higher price for their fuel than we do, much of that goes to the cradle-to-grave social programs in the E.U. When the world oil market drives up the price of oil as they are now through speculation, the E.U. will be faced with either cutting benefits to their people, or astronomical fuel prices (both heating and vehicle) to continue with the level of support for their people. Something will have to give. They already drive itsy-bitsy cars, so there's nowhere to go there.

The U.S. on the other hand has a lot of low-hanging fruit regarding conservation. There's a heck of a lot we can (and will eventually have to) do to reduce, and perhaps eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. It's going to be very painful for the American automakers and the American consumer, but I'm certain we can maintain much of our way of life as long as that way doesn't center around the automobile.

I proposed a few months ago that the American oil companies can avoid a windfall profits tax by spinning off a significant percentage of their profits to the big 3 automakers for hybrid research and development. It doesn't end there, however. The oil companies shouldn't be paying for anything EXCEPT hybrid tech -- not union contracts or high CEO bonuses. The labor unions have to come to the table in the interest of saving their industry. So does the oil industry.

I am politically moderate, and like others, have not enjoyed seeing people go severely partisan in this thread. I empathize with strong feelings on both sides and firmly believe that we need to start living in the solution and not the problem. Both polical parties have a lot to answer for as do the American electorate.

Thanks for letting me get up on the soap-box.

Don