Xyrus,
Some on this site may perceive you as a troll at best, a plant at worst.
I do not.
I see no evidence of it thus far.

Please continue posting your experiences. It IS all good.

And WELCOME to GreenHybrid.

You'll discover we are really a pretty friendly bunch (which you probably already know if you've been reading up on the site.) There is a built-in suspicion of new poster being potential trolls and shills. THis is true on lots of forums.
There's an anti-GM bias you can feel, for sure. This is partly due to their own lack of confidence in the electric car (EV1, for example) and of hybrids in general. They appear as joining the party late, after trying to kill the thing, and now have to save face and finally (again) get with the program. Whatever. As long as GM moves forward too, I don't care. Build a product I want - hell, I might buy it. I want to see the QUALITY improve at GM, first though.

 

Thanks. That's the most civil post yet.

I've gathered that there is anti-GM bias. Some of their past actions have certainly deserved such bias, to be sure. I'd like to think that they can learn from their mistakes though. This seems to be the case now that there bringing out full hybrids, as well as incorporating the BAS into more of their own vehicles. BAS's aren't the best, but anything that get's people to be even just a tiny bit more fuel efficient is a good thing.

While GM did a good job of sneaking in a stabbing the EV1 to death, I'm not so sure that (at the time) it was the best idea to introduce the vehicle. It was quite expensive, and could really do only short trips. You'd have to make sure you could get to where you were going and back if you couldn't charge up, and even if you could charge you were talking hours.

Now, there are better battery technologies and soon we will have workable ultracapacitors. Gasoline costs will most likely continue to rise. An all electric vehicle still might not be a popular concept at this point, but a pluggable hybrid would definately hold appeal.

The big problem still with all-electric is charging time. Batteries take a long time to charge, compared to filling up the tank. Gasoline has many times more energy density than even the best batteries.

However, with ultracapacitors you could shove quite a bit of charge into them quickly (a matter of minutes). They also don't suffer from other drawbacks of batteries (limited charge cycles, for example). They are also significantly lighter than batteries as capacitors derive their power on the basis of surface area, not density.

We're almost there with carbon-nanotube filament capacitor architecture. Probably within another decade if certain coporation don't try to kill it first.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to the pluggables. I'm hoping that they will be priced reasonably, but that doesn't seem to likely. Then again, if you can wring 100 mpg out of them it may be a worthwhile investment.

~X~

 

Your numbers seemed much closer than I'd remembered from an comparison I did awhile back.

Anyway, I again checked KBB.com and what to my surprise the pricing for both the Hybrid and XLT have changed considerably from 2006 to 2007 as follows.

Hybrid MSRP 2006 = $27515, 2007 = $26320, difference = -$1195

XLT MSRP 2006 = $23150, 2007 = $24575, difference = +$1425

So somehow Ford has dropped the asking price of the Hybrid by $1195, but increased the price of the XLT by $1425? That's a reduction in hybrid "premium" of $2620 in one year.

The only item that seems to have been dropped in the 2007 Hybrid was the luggage rack. There is nothing added to the 2007 XLT to explain the price increase.

Ford has to be playing with pricing to try to up the sales of the FEH.

Anyone understand this? As it stands the FEH is a no brainer compared to the XLT as you concluded ag4ever.

 

Well I am certainly looking forward to see what is coming out in the near furture. It's too bad that there are so many people bickering back and forth. If you don't like a vehicle then don't buy it. My wife won't drive my new Honda because she feels it's too 'low class' for her. Do I think it's rather silly, yes I do. Does it mean she is wrong? No. I hope too see more positive things about the new Saturn Vue Green Line and I have a friend who is considering getting one and I would like to provide him with even more information. Any attempt to improve a vehicle, wether or not someone agrees with the way it's done, it's always a good thing in my book.

 

Hi,

Understand that physics and engineering have no feelings, just facts and data. So please don't personify them because they resent it. <grins>

The Wiki BAS entry states it is a 48 VDC battery system (the Saturnfan site claims 36 VDC.) To generate 20 hp from 48 VDC (an easier problem than 36 VDC) would take:

(20*745)/48 = ~310 amps

20 hp
~745 watts/hp
48 V

If the Saturnfan site is accurate:

(20*745)/36 = ~413 amps

In ordinary physics and engineering, the VUE hybrid needs wiring and batteries capable of handling over 300 amps (or 400 amps if the Saturnfan site is accurate.) Furthermore, the air cooled BAS is physically smaller than Honda and Toyota motors of similar power ratings, 20, 24 and 40 hp.

Bob Wilson

 

I wasn't.

Since there is some disagreement with the numbers, I went back and checked the numbers from this document, instead of using the numbers on the forum itself.

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...2773/cat/12616

This is the tech document. From reading this, I'm not sure where they were getting 20 HP. Maybe the motor itself is capable of 20 HP, but you'd never get it at the power they put into it. Perhaps if you dumped the peak battery output into the motor you would get 20 HP, but not from the nominal operating wattage.

Nominal operating wattage: 4000
watt-to-horsepower conversion: 0.00134102209
Total HP at nominal: ~5.5 HP

The document stipulates a 36V operating potential. Cobasys modified their 1000 model for this vehicle (the 1000 model outputs 48 volts).

I guess that will teach me to rely on forum numbers.

Unlike some, I admit when I am wrong. Anyway, 5 HP is enough to give a slight boost, and maintain reasonable cruising speeds. You're not going to see anything close to what a two-mode will do, but at least it is something.

~X~

 

Hi,

This helps and I appreciate the posting.

Thanks! I kept looking for technical specs and this was one area Google wasn't having much luck with. Since it appears to be a photo of the technical specs, it is easy to understand why it wouldn't be easily found.

This is fine and fits with what I thought I was seeing. I had estimated 5 hp based upon:
- GM's Silverado power generator was rated about 4 kW
- BAS is about the size of a 4-6 kW generator
- power limitations of ordinary belt drives (Harley's are special)
- typical engine cranking power needed

Engine off at a stop is useful in today's urban traffic and the ability to operate accessories while stopped is a good thing. Each hybrid has unique characteristics and it is important to understand their strengths and weaknesses so we can choose the 'right tool for the right job.'

Bob Wilson

 

I agree, the BAS system is a very useful system, and should be implemented on ALL vehicles sould. Just the fact that it stops the engine at traffic lights is worth it. If there was no other benifit, I feel this could save millions of gallons of fuel each year IF IT WAS IMPLIMENTED ON ALL CARS SOLD. I am not one that thinks we should produce less "green house gasses" but I do think we should rely less on mid-east oil.

The BAS is a step in the right direction, but please don't market it as a miricle cure all and make people think it will do more than it actually can. That is what the 2-mode is and how it should be marketed.

I would love to have someone verify my toyota prices, as I don't see Ford being able to sell a similar technology system for such a little premium compared to the toyota's stiff premium.

 

DailyTech - GM Plug-in Hybrid to Deliver 70MPG Is this for real.These will sell like hot cakes!!!

 

Heck, if the 2009 VUE turns out to really be a real plug-in hybrid, I'd trade in my HCH. My daily round-trip commute is under ten miles, which means I could effectively get "infinite" gas mileage out of a VUE.

I guess GM is choosing the small-size SUV format so that there is room for all the batteries. Likewise, the revised plug-in VUE would probably have to have 2-mode or possibly something else entirely. (A juiced-up BAS would probably behave like Honda's IMA drive).

I really hope GM makes this vehicle. They've got the know-how from the EV1 project and from the 2-mode transit busses. They just have to combine it into one package.