339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
#81
01-06-2007, 02:21 PM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Another danger (and I think one of Zimbop's points), is that IF the performance hybrids really sell well, then the manufacturers will make more and more models of THEM and fewer and fewer models of the high-MPG hybrids. If that occurs, we'll miss out on making truly, astoundingly high MPG cars in the near future (and we're SO close) 
I also think there are many advantages to a car like this. Lexus has now invested in (or acquired from Toyota) the engineering and manufacturing capability needed to produce a hybrid. So what if they chose the GS 450h first. Because of that investment, they are now equipped to select other models without incuring all the "start up" costs. Now because they built one, maybe, just maybe, they'll do another. For me, a hybrid IS 250 would be a no-brainer purchase for my next car.
The point is that any car company equipping themselves to build a hybrid is a good thing because the odds increase that the technology will find it's way into other models. The investment in the engineering and manufacturing is a significant hurdle to get over. So what if they select a power hybrid or a truck first. If with those modest gains in FE, it still means progress toward more choices and higher FE options. And the more car companies who build them, the more competition. With that comes more choices and better performance.
#82
01-07-2007, 07:55 AM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
I'm on the fence with the performance hybrids.
On the one hand, people could (and probably should) make more fuel-efficient choices than this luxury hybrid. But some people are going to buy big, luxury vehicles 'til the day they die.
Buying this hybrid rather than the equivalent V-8, and getting better MPG *DOES* consume less oil and pollute less. Not having the choice, many of these luxury buyers would buy the V-8 Lexus, and just use more oil, pollute more - and not worry a hoot about it. After all, they can certainly afford gas if they're purchasing this Lexus! Getting them into the hybrid, any hybrid, is probably better than not. After all, 25 MPG is better than 18 MPG.
The danger here, is that some people may never take the next step to *really* reduce their fuel consumption, feeling this is a great "compromise", and feeling good about themselves for being "green." In fact, they have compromised little, if any, and are no greener than the average car that gets 25 MPG.
On the one hand, people could (and probably should) make more fuel-efficient choices than this luxury hybrid. But some people are going to buy big, luxury vehicles 'til the day they die.
Buying this hybrid rather than the equivalent V-8, and getting better MPG *DOES* consume less oil and pollute less. Not having the choice, many of these luxury buyers would buy the V-8 Lexus, and just use more oil, pollute more - and not worry a hoot about it. After all, they can certainly afford gas if they're purchasing this Lexus! Getting them into the hybrid, any hybrid, is probably better than not. After all, 25 MPG is better than 18 MPG.
The danger here, is that some people may never take the next step to *really* reduce their fuel consumption, feeling this is a great "compromise", and feeling good about themselves for being "green." In fact, they have compromised little, if any, and are no greener than the average car that gets 25 MPG.
Another danger (and I think one of Zimbop's points), is that IF the performance hybrids really sell well, then the manufacturers will make more and more models of THEM and fewer and fewer models of the high-MPG hybrids. If that occurs, we'll miss out on making truly, astoundingly high MPG cars in the near future (and we're SO close)
I don't know if it's an either / or proposition. That is, that more power-hybrids will equal less FE hybrids. So long as there is a market - and clearly hudreds of thousands of Civics/Prius/Insights on the road establish that - there will be high FE options. If the Prius III is what the rumors advertise, it will force competitors to raise the bar and everything gets better.
I also think there are many advantages to a car like this. Lexus has now invested in (or acquired from Toyota) the engineering and manufacturing capability needed to produce a hybrid. So what if they chose the GS 450h first. Because of that investment, they are now equipped to select other models without incuring all the "start up" costs. Now because they built one, maybe, just maybe, they'll do another. For me, a hybrid IS 250 would be a no-brainer purchase for my next car.
The point is that any car company equipping themselves to build a hybrid is a good thing because the odds increase that the technology will find it's way into other models. The investment in the engineering and manufacturing is a significant hurdle to get over. So what if they select a power hybrid or a truck first. If with those modest gains in FE, it still means progress toward more choices and higher FE options. And the more car companies who build them, the more competition. With that comes more choices and better performance.
I also think there are many advantages to a car like this. Lexus has now invested in (or acquired from Toyota) the engineering and manufacturing capability needed to produce a hybrid. So what if they chose the GS 450h first. Because of that investment, they are now equipped to select other models without incuring all the "start up" costs. Now because they built one, maybe, just maybe, they'll do another. For me, a hybrid IS 250 would be a no-brainer purchase for my next car.
The point is that any car company equipping themselves to build a hybrid is a good thing because the odds increase that the technology will find it's way into other models. The investment in the engineering and manufacturing is a significant hurdle to get over. So what if they select a power hybrid or a truck first. If with those modest gains in FE, it still means progress toward more choices and higher FE options. And the more car companies who build them, the more competition. With that comes more choices and better performance.
#83
01-07-2007, 08:53 PM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
I also think there are many advantages to a car like this. Lexus has now invested in (or acquired from Toyota) the engineering and manufacturing capability needed to produce a hybrid. So what if they chose the GS 450h first. Because of that investment, they are now equipped to select other models without incuring all the "start up" costs. Now because they built one, maybe, just maybe, they'll do another. For me, a hybrid IS 250 would be a no-brainer purchase for my next car.
Lexus had the RX400h prior to releasing the GS450h, and the problem I see is how Lexus as a whole is implementing their hybrid offerings. The RX400h does not get any better mileage than the RX350, but is faster. the GS450h does get better mileage than the GS430, but better performance 5.7 0-60 vs. 5.2 0-60. They don't have any "average" offerings where you can get the ES with a same performance and much better mileage package.
#84
01-08-2007, 06:20 AM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 609
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Lexus is Toyota. Just the same as Lincoln is Ford.
Lexus had the RX400h prior to releasing the GS450h, and the problem I see is how Lexus as a whole is implementing their hybrid offerings. The RX400h does not get any better mileage than the RX350, but is faster. the GS450h does get better mileage than the GS430, but better performance 5.7 0-60 vs. 5.2 0-60. They don't have any "average" offerings where you can get the ES with a same performance and much better mileage package.
Lexus had the RX400h prior to releasing the GS450h, and the problem I see is how Lexus as a whole is implementing their hybrid offerings. The RX400h does not get any better mileage than the RX350, but is faster. the GS450h does get better mileage than the GS430, but better performance 5.7 0-60 vs. 5.2 0-60. They don't have any "average" offerings where you can get the ES with a same performance and much better mileage package.
#85
01-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Lexus is Toyota. Just the same as Lincoln is Ford.
Lexus had the RX400h prior to releasing the GS450h, and the problem I see is how Lexus as a whole is implementing their hybrid offerings. The RX400h does not get any better mileage than the RX350, but is faster. the GS450h does get better mileage than the GS430, but better performance 5.7 0-60 vs. 5.2 0-60. They don't have any "average" offerings where you can get the ES with a same performance and much better mileage package.
Lexus had the RX400h prior to releasing the GS450h, and the problem I see is how Lexus as a whole is implementing their hybrid offerings. The RX400h does not get any better mileage than the RX350, but is faster. the GS450h does get better mileage than the GS430, but better performance 5.7 0-60 vs. 5.2 0-60. They don't have any "average" offerings where you can get the ES with a same performance and much better mileage package.
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/sp...0350&trimid=-1
According to those figures, the Lexus RX350 gets 19 mpg city and 24 mpg highway with all wheel drive while the Lexus RX400h gets 31 mpg city and 27 mpg highway with all wheel drive. I do not know about you, but I call a 63% increase in city fuel economy and a 13% increase in highway fuel economy improvements. You are correct, however, that the hybrid version accelerates faster; Lexus claims a 7.4 second zero to sixty with the RX350 and a 6.9 second zero to sixty with the RX400h.
This has been my point exactly. It's getting more performance for basically the same consumption. I don't see that as environmental progress. It may be great that they can squeeze more power out of it for "free", but it's not really reducing fuel consumption. That may deserve congratulations for engineering, but not for environmentalism, and thus I can not call it a 'green' vehicle.
#86
01-10-2007, 07:23 PM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
This has been my point exactly. It's getting more performance for basically the same consumption. I don't see that as environmental progress. It may be great that they can squeeze more power out of it for "free", but it's not really reducing fuel consumption. That may deserve congratulations for engineering, but not for environmentalism, and thus I can not call it a 'green' vehicle.
(These are from www.lexus.com)
As previously posted, the RX 350 has 270 hp and 19/24 MPG, the RX 400 h is 268 hp and gets 31/27. So it's not simply squeezing more performance - it's maintaining expected performance with MUCH better FE.
On the GS450h, the question is what other cars out there have 340 hp and get 25/28 MPG. I doubt any come even close.
Unless we believe that no car should cost more than $30K and have no more than 200 hp, you're going to have upscale offerings. Upscale cars are expected to have more performance. No one is going to drop 54 grand on a car with 180 hp. It's expected that you get it all. So in the world of 300+ hp cars, if you lined them up I'd expect the 450h to be much greener than it's peers, which I think is a fair comparison (just a quick trip to BMW you find an M3 at 333 hp and 16/24 MPG).
Now the debate over why anyone needs a $50K+ 340 hp car is a seperate issue, and IMO should not taint the gains this car makes over it's peers. It's also a seperate issue to rate a car like this on an absolute scale. Sure any Civic or Prius will double the FE, but that's not an equivalent comparison to make and is again, a seperate issue I think.
#87
01-11-2007, 08:20 AM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
According to those figures, the Lexus RX350 gets 19 mpg city and 24 mpg highway with all wheel drive while the Lexus RX400h gets 31 mpg city and 27 mpg highway with all wheel drive. I do not know about you, but I call a 63% increase in city fuel economy and a 13% increase in highway fuel economy improvements. You are correct, however, that the hybrid version accelerates faster; Lexus claims a 7.4 second zero to sixty with the RX350 and a 6.9 second zero to sixty with the RX400h.
From the database here, the average for the RX400h is 25.2.
(25.2 median, 25.3 mean, and 23.1-27.4 middle 50%)
That is a 9% increase, a far cry from the 63% increase the epa data cites for cit and still even less than the 13% increase for highway mileage.
So my comment is not exactly correct and should be restated, the RX400h gets slightly beter FE than the non-hybrid, and not the same as was stated before.
Either way, I find it intersting that non of the Lexus vehicles have any distinguising markings (other than the small lowercase h after the model name) to tell anybody it is a hybrid. No TSD badge, no Hybrid fender badges, nothing! Even the H is lowecase while all other letters in the name are uppercase giving evedince that the hybrid portion is not really accepted and kind of reluctantly allowed to be there.
#88
01-11-2007, 06:41 PM
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 609
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Not meaning to drag this on longer than it has, but...
(These are from www.lexus.com)
On the GS450h, the question is what other cars out there have 340 hp and get 25/28 MPG. I doubt any come even close.
Unless we believe that no car should cost more than $30K and have no more than 200 hp, you're going to have upscale offerings.
(These are from www.lexus.com)
On the GS450h, the question is what other cars out there have 340 hp and get 25/28 MPG. I doubt any come even close.
Unless we believe that no car should cost more than $30K and have no more than 200 hp, you're going to have upscale offerings.
I can't speak for the others, but my point all along has been that of course there will be extra-powerful cars on the market, but they shouldn't get congratulated for environmental progress. A 340hp car is a big waste of power, no matter if it does better than its equivalent V-16 or whatever, it's still a waste.
#89
01-17-2007, 06:04 PM
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
I can't speak for the others, but my point all along has been that of course there will be extra-powerful cars on the market, but they shouldn't get congratulated for environmental progress. A 340hp car is a big waste of power, no matter if it does better than its equivalent V-16 or whatever, it's still a waste.
i'm sorry, but why do you dis hi performance hybrids? i mean, hybrid cars werent really meant for performance, but let's face it, lots of folks like performance. i've been saddled with a chevy cavalier for 14 years, i'd like a little performance.
