Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

Non-union built, low MPG vehicles are OK?

I don't care who builds a well engineered car. BTW, the GM cars were a heck of a lot cheaper than my 03 Prius but there was no way I would buy a car designed to fail.

Only by you. I buy for value and good engineering. But I notice Japan has universal medical care . . . something missing here. It is the one thing that would save GM and the rest of our remaining manufacturing.

Some engineering failures are written in blood and others in ink but always the color is red.

So how much do you think the GM hyrdogen vans will get on Ebay?

Bob Wilson

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

You can forget about the universal medical care coverage. Won't happen. Besides, who is going to pay for this? The numbers don't lie. One can put all the lipstick on the UAW pig it wants to but it is still a pig. Remove the albatross of the UAW and GM would survive. Absent that it will be in bankruptcy.

Trying to lay all of this on GM's engineering is a non-starter. Almost 100% of the problem lies with the UAW. If GM were able to jettison the union contracts it would go from being in the red into the black even if their market share declined. You can do the math yourself. GM can't stay in business by by selling cars or trucks for less than they manufacture them for. They can't buy the business by offering incentives that take all the profit out of a car. They could get by when SUVs were all the rage. They are merely gussied up pickup trucks with an exterior body and some fancy upholstery. They can turn a $15,000 truck into a $40,000 Surburban or Cadillac SUV but it's still basically a truck. That hides the problem. Now that people are no longer buying those vehicles they can now see the emporer has no clothes. The UAW put them there. The UAW members have no loyalty to the companies. They DO have loyalty to the UAW which has made them feel like royalty. Evidently they believe the UAW writes out their paychecks. Now they'll get to live like the rest of us peons. I view the UAW as I do the Mafia. It is either pay them for "protection" or they will burn down the business. Well, they have now succeeded in doing just that.

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

I don't care if it happens or not since that doesn't change an engineering drawing or set of assembly instructions. It is simply GM's lame excuse for badly engineered vehicles.

When you show a union produced engineering drawing or assembly instruction, there will be some credibility. But you and I both know the unions didn't run GM engineering.

Why claim just "100%" when making up numbers. Make it 1000%. Heck, blame every failure in life on it.


GM designed, even their cars brought in from non-union factories, are not enough for me to trade in my 03 Prius. I like good engineering too much.

Last summer, while Toyota dealers had waiting lists and fees tacked on top of the MSRP, GM junk sat on their lots and they had a fire-sale to move their inventory. I got several pieces of GM literature trying to get me on their lots and I just laughed as I tossed it in the trash.

The biggest insult was GM claiming that stopping an engine at a stop makes a hybrid and should cost $3-4,000 more. That was NOT a union decision.

GM engineering is not unionized nor is their management. They have designed huge, wasteful pieces of metal crap rolling down the roads. Meanwhile, they've been wasting money running a couple hydrogen vans around DC for the past two to three years.

It isn't unions, it is engineering that make GM products crap. Their management bought it and now reap the rewards. If they want to blame it on health care cost and you want to believe those fools, fine by me. Just don't expect me to 'sip the koolaid.'

Bob Wilson

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

The GM engineers have to cope with the UAW workers. They have an incentive to design a vehicle that takes as little labor as possible to assemble, and that sometimes conflicts with QA.

One thing that the UAW did in the 1980's was to resist the introduction of robotics on the assembly line. The only problem with that plan was it did not stop the Japanese from using robotics at every turn, building a better car.

______________

Maybe this should have been a poll question....

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

GM engineering claims that shutting off an engine at a stop makes a hybrid-electric. GM management claims this is worth $3-4,000 more. These are not union decisions nor forced by the unions.

GM has been running a pair of hydrogen fuel-cell powered vans around Washington DC for two-three years. This was neither a union decision nor a union design but GM engineering and management.

Good engineering doesn't blame others for their failures. Neither does a craftsman blame their tools. GM decided to engineer cars based upon 'cheap gas' and then reality happened.

Bob Wilson

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

I'd venture to say the GM engineers are like Dilbert, and the ones that decided BAS is a 3-4K option are the Pointy Haired Bosses....

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

OK, a 1000% then. The UAW is the problem. $27 per hour plus and equal amount in benefits, plus the retirees equals bankruptcy. The UAW puts in a nickle of effort into saving the company and expects to get a dollar's worth of candy from the vending machine. Sorry, but the vending machine is out of candy.

I hate to say this, but frankly I do hope that GM goes belly up. I have two new Fords in my garage and I'd like to see this company survive. I've had nothing but good service from my many new Fords (I've owned 54 cars in my lifetime) and I want to see Ford survive. With GM out of the way, Ford would eventually take that market and as the workers at Toyota age Toyota will at some point have to pony up the exorbitant social costs so it will even out given enough time.

The Chevrolet and Cadillac brands will survive somehow. The rest should be given the ax and with it the ungrateful UAW workers who have been on this gravy train for far too many years. Time to live like the rest of us mere mortals. They can give up their yachts, second vacation homes and guaranteed wages for doing nothing.

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

Not to enter the fray or anything, but to point it out an error. Ford had a no union policy because Henry Ford didn't want a union, and didn't see any benefits to having one. Any talk of a union on Ford property resulted in dismissal. All the threats and other activities didn't result in a union, Henry could care less with the accidents and whatnot, just as he didn't care about comfort in the Model T. Clara Ford sympathized with the union ideas, and not with what she felt was her unfair husband and threatened to leave Henry if he didn't accept the Union. Henry didn't want to lose her, so he accepted the union and unionized Ford.

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

Hey, on this manangement bashing - union bashing thingy:

Could it be that both are to blame. They made agreements in good faith with each other when times were much better. Now it is time for both to bail if the ship is to remain afloat.

Workers in non-unionized plants are benefitting from union efforts. Apparently they don't feel the need to unionize themselves since the work has already been done. The nonunion companies are well aware of this and won't do anything which will encourage unionization. All's okay, at least until the levees give way.

I do agree that the unions (yes, and management as well) need to get off the dime and restructure their relationship to meet current conditions. Labor is as much a stakeholder in an automotive company as are stockholders, customers, management, and staff.

Let us hope that both labor and management can shed that part of the twentieth century which is no longer appropriate and work for a solution to make the corporations viable for all stakeholders in the future.

Re: Could Bankruptcy Actually Help GM?
 

I concurr - it was a "team effort" at GM. :embarass: