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Hi Jason:
___Yes, I am as I placed more data about the Insight in there. ___As for the 01-03 Prius, look whose driving it! I think he just picked it up recently as well … ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
xcel,
I just created a transparency effect that is viewable on some browsers (not mine). The problem is that it's also making the text transparent. I don't have time to fix it now, though. Do you like how it's headed? |
I have increased reliability of the database calculations by creating a new field when creating a car: Modified. If the car has been modified for performance or mileage, it is excluded from the averages on the main page, and the name of the car reflects this status.
Walla! |
There are now links to download the database car and trip data. Enjoy!
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The database now pulls the national gas price from gaspricewatch.com and uses it to calculate costs for gas amounts :)
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Hi Jason:
___Unfortunately, lmpg’s and absolute highs are still not distinguishable. Just read the descriptions and you can see a few absolute highs in the list vs. lmpg’s without a way of knowing what is what. Another problem is with the UK based Insight, I believe it achieved its absolute high mpg segment under British - Imperial Gallons. This is exaggerated a bit from the US spec’ed gallons. The last problem is that as time goes on, lmpg’s AND absolutes will increase for all the vehicles above. There probably isn’t an 04 Prius with 20,000 on it in the country yet their lmpg’s will increase as it warms up well … I am personally picking up ~ .4 mpg/week right now w/ my lmpg topping off at a hopeful 82 - 83 lmpg sometime this summer. The absolute highs are also going to fall by the wayside quickly. I still see many absolute highs and short trip segment’s in the list which skew the averages pretty badly? ___I still have no way to enter the absolute high mpg’s of the 03 Corolla LE or the MDX Touring unfortunately? Once you get all of this straightened out, I will E-Mail Chisight to place his own personal bests into the list. You are going to be picking up your teeth from the floor after you see those! ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Wayne,
You lost me in the first couple sentences. There is no capability for high mileage trips -- the database is made to compute lifetime mielages based on the data it's given. |
Hi Jason:
___Read through the descriptions. Impetus’ 04 Prius hit a 75 mpg absolute on a 35 mile segment? Mark’s Insight performed its average on a 659 segment w/ Imperial gallons. Grncar’s segment came from a 52 mile run. Rick Reece’s lmpg is 89.x mpg over 80,000 miles yet he has had tankful after tankful of 100 + mpg tanks over the last year or two … The numbers can’t be correlated because you cannot see the difference between LMPG’s, mpg’s/tank, and/or Absolute high’s. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
xcel,
What you failed to realize is that only Insights provide a LMPG value. The Prius does NOT. This database was created to CALCULATE this LMPG -- I have no need for absolute highs. MPG/tank is the usual increment for a trip plot. |
Hi Jason:
___Then please look over the data posted to date. The 04 Prius showing 75 mpg is not based on lmpg or even a tank. It’s a 35 mile segment. Most every Insight listed is posted with a segment, lmpg, year average, or absolute high. If it’s a lifetime mpg database, you have to make room for Hybrid’s with even more data available to them then just the 04 Prius as this is what an Insighter sees every time he/she boots up the car. As it stands, the data base is a mix and match of every kind of number imaginable and the numbers will only get worse as Prius’, Insight’s, and HCH’s, get more miles on them. It just doesn’t make any sense to create a lifetime mileage Database if you do not make room for all of the available information or make room for information as it changes. I don’t know of a single Prius, HCH, or Insight owner whose mileage is not steadily climbing as the temperatures warm over the last few weeks myself? You should have already seen this yourself as your new driving techniques have improved your Prius’ mileage over the last 2 to 3 weeks … ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Xcel,
This is true. However, the only possible solution that I see is that a user may alternatively override all their data for their final LMPG average. This would be extremely innaccurate as far as the rest of the data, including Temperature, etc. As I said before, if everyone adds all their data, there's no problem. There is little I can do until people agree to provide more accurate information. |
Hi Jason:
___I don’t know if you are capturing the root cause. ___I don’t think there is single entry that is inaccurate or misreported in the entire list but the conditions, averages, temperatures, and types of mileages shown are completely different. Do you think the 106 mpg reported by Mark’s UK based Insight isn’t an absolute high? I believe it is also under Imperial gallons. Do you think the 75 mpg Prius over a 35 mpg segment is representative of a lifetime mpg of the same Prius calculated or not? All you have to do is add these data points to the forms including absolute high’s, tanks, segments w/ miles driven, and a lmpg. Some of these will be left blank of course because some don’t or cannot keep track. If my lifetime mileage is increasing at a .4 mpg rate/week over the last 4 weeks, how can I represent the data in your database? Over the past 4 weeks, the average temperature I have driven in has climbed from maybe 20 degrees to maybe 25 degrees F … Traffic hasn’t really changed but my absolute high has increased, my lmpg has increased, and the average temperatures driven in has increased. There isn’t a vehicle’s information in the database that this has not or will not change in the near future as temperatures climb. ___Again, to make this information meaningful, you have to drill down to the conditions for this particular fuel economy and make sure it is represented with a description or condition that accurately reflects what is shown. Right now, the list is a mix of absolute’s, estimated and real lmpg’s, tank highs, and segment highs. ___Might I suggest that you look over at InsightCentral.net’s Lifetime Mileage Database. This database has been used by government and university studies as a representative sample of Insighter’s actual real world mpg’s. Even though it has not been kept completely up to date, it is a powerful tool to see what the Insight is capable of over a range of speeds driven when correlated properly. Your database cannot be used as such is all I am trying to point out. If you add the appropriate delineations, it can be. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Xcel,
I find myself increasingly irritated because I am convinced it is the err of users and not my own that caused this "problem." First of all, there is an Imperial gallon conversion in the "Add Data" page. If Mark selected this unit, the figure is fine. Do I think that people are posting their highest mileage trips? Yes! But, unfortunately, this is the exact OPPOSITE of what I asked them to do. At the top of the Add page it specifically states that I do NOT want such figures. If everyone added all the data they had, the database would be 100% accurate. The fact that people are not following through is their own fault. There is no way I can make them follow the instructions. Creating separate mileage inputs will not solve this problem. Insighters won't necessarily post their LMPG, but rather their highest trips (still). Prius owners won't be able to calculate their LMPG (at least, many do not know how if they only have avg mileage data). As far as tank highs, they can throw them out the window for all I care. We don't want them. We have no use for them. They're irrelevant and misleading. The Insight mileage database uses LMPGs which are printed ON the Insight for easy viewing. You can't mess that up. You can lie about it, though, which is essentially what people are doing in our database by withholding lower mileage trips. The only thing I may add is an approximate odometer reading, but still, this won't do any good if the rest of the data is bad. As I said before, this is a CALCULATED MILEAGE database. The problem to solve is how to get people to input all of their data or at least an accurate sample, rather than try to climb the charts by inputting the hightest data they have. |
Hi Jason:
___I am not saying it is your fault … What I am saying is that if you include in your data form an Absolute High w/ miles driven, a Segment high with miles driven, a Tank high with miles driven, and a lmpg, you won’t see the mix of data that is currently posted. There is no rhyme or reason as to what is posted currently and it is unusable for an actual study of hybrid’s as a whole but it can be corrected before to many others enter their own data whether that be absolutes, segments, tanks, or lmpg’s under whatever conditions. ___As mentioned above, I am sure your own lmpg is climbing on a weekly basis, right? I know mine is. I can bet that every 04 Prius listed in the database is as well. Once they come back and edit the data, the updated info is not calculated into the current total averages if I understand your explanations properly? With that, the averages will only highlight a new owners fuel economy and that is most certainly not representative of what many of us are going to see over the next few years as we actually accumulate 10’s to 100’s of thousands of miles … ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Xcel,
Perhaps it's my low tollerance for a free-for-all attitude about inputting data that set me off :) I tend to think that if I make something like this available, everyone ought to stick to the rules. Since it's obvious that I need to spoon feed some people (wink, wink at the rebels), it looks like I'll be adding a dropdown to figure out exactly waht these people are thinking! As far as "the updated info is not calculated into the current total averages if I understand your explanations properly," I'm not sure what you mean. Any updated information is as good as new. If I add a general odometer range field, I can create a line graph showing the increase in time. Of course, this will be wildly inaccurate until a couple YEARS roll around. It looks like tomorrow I'll be doing some more modifications to the database. I just wish people would read and follow directions :D |
i think i get what he was saying. the new data entries are averaged in w/ the rest. the average is what is displayed on the chart.
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If he was commenting on the fact that the average mileages for the cars will be increasing with distance, I agree. Therefore, I may add an odometer reading.
Realize, though, that if I want some sort of aggregate statistic, that's what it will be. Otherwise, everything will be per-car. |
If anyone happens to know a tiny bit of computer code, would you mind helping to ensure that these calculations are correct? It's too late for me right now and I need to be getting off, so I can't write it all down right now. Here's what I'm using for units conversions.
I tried plugging in a value in the database and seeing if the conversion worked, but again, right now I'm too tired. Code:
if (mileage_unit1 == 'km') { |
Hi Jason:
It looks like tomorrow I'll be doing some more modifications to the database. I just wish people would read and follow directions If the car has been modified for performance or mileage, it is excluded from the averages on the main page, and the name of the car reflects this status. ___Make it simple and accurate or make it detailed and accurate but either way, make it representative ;) ___And a bit OT but have you ever heard of Blue Planet Gasoline? It is available at some Holiday stations in Minnesota and upper Wisconsin. Not only is it low in Sulfur and Benzene, it makes all automobiles w/ CAT’s effluent cleaner. I tried to talk John1701a into placing a link about it on his web site a few months ago but I haven’t seen it yet. Anyway, take a look as this is the future of gasoline’s available here in the state and it’s a positive development for all of us as well … ___Good Luck with the database mods. ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Modified cars are, indeed, excluded. It is not representative if someone gets 500mpg on a modified Insight.
Never heard of BPG. Bookmarked. Tomorrow. Mind checking those calculations? I think it is possible that I inversed (or didn't inverse) some of the units -- it could account for unusually high or low conversions. If I spot it, I can manually change the incorrect data and fix it for future conversions. |
Hi Jason:
___I will have to check at another time as well … A 16 hour day tomorrow and I have to go myself. ___As for modified automobiles, I know of at least 4 that have been in your list although I will not say which ones ;) In the case of the Insight, we route the std. OEM intake piping from behind the radiator to next to the CAT shield behind the motor and we throw a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator on a built in shelf. Less then 30 seconds to install or remove. It is not that much of a mod but it does improve winter temperature mileage. This works for 04 Prius’ as well if you haven’t followed those Japanese 04 Prius drivers that use this technique in colder temperatures. Once we reach ~ 50 + degrees F, the mod(s) are pulled as they don’t add anything (they are actually detrimental in some cases) after that … ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Wayne,
Why won't you let me know which cars in the database are modified? From now on it will be automatic, but I would like to edit manually those who are modified and not labeled. |
What do you think about a simple checkbox in the secure area that asks the user whether all of the data they have entered is an accurate representation of their averages? If they check this box, their data will appear on the main page.
This would both weed out those who are just messing around and would also remind people that this is not a hi/lo chart. |
I can attest that my vehicle has a few changes, but I do not think it would necessitate not including the data. I merely think that my vehicle page should have a place where I can note the three things that I have changed so that there is full disclosure. Changes 1 and 2 below simply help cars in colder climates get on par with warmer climates.
Here are the changes: 1) I have routed an air intake hose that directs warm air from the back of the engine rather than cold air front the front of the engine. It is what Wayne G described above. It is a change I think all people in cold climates would do if they realized it takes less than 1 minute to do and completely reversible. (Read: remove when going in for dealer service.) 2) I also block some of the radiator with cardboard in the winter so the car gets up to operating temperature faster. Is this a modification, too? I suppose in the strictest sense, yes, but I also believe this is something most people should do as well. I don’t have a garage to park my car in, so it always sits outside. Without the cardboard, it would be a longer time until it reached operating temperature, compared to someone who parks inside a garage. 3) Lastly, when appropriate, I maintain the tire pressure higher than the manual suggests. Is that a modification? These are all things so easy my mom could do them. I would hardly consider them true modifications to the vehicle. It’s not like I’ve added some sort of extra high powered battery or installed a turbocharger. Eric |
I suppose you're right -- though this poses some serious questions. Should extremely-modified cars (as is Wayne's -- Prius Wayne) be allowed in aggregate statistics? They will skew the data.
Still, I'm not sure what to do about the LMPG vs. Trip vs. High, etc data. There really is no good way to do this. Either people add all their data or just their LMPG, but since most people don't know their LMPG that only leaves one option. People, however, refuse to add all their data. |
Okay, well I went ahead and fixed the "mod" problem. There's now a way to edit cars, as well. In the car data, one can input information about car modifications, which are outputted on the Detailed page. Lots of fun.
Now that that's taken care of, the main issue is what to do about the mileage calculations as far as having comparable data. I really can't ask for a LMPG from some and calculate it for others, because this is inconsistant and I won't have the data to back all of it up. I can't give the option of only providing trips that won't be calculated, because then the data won't be used in the totals -- I'll basically throw it away. Can you think of any good solution? |
As an Insight owner, it takes some effort to put in every trip.
It would be easier, and less time consuming, to put in each tankful instead. Every trip would be accounted for in aggregate, but the details about some of the really good days and really bad days would be lost. Also, just double checking that I have been adding information correctly. I have been adding each trip. Yesterday, for example I had 4 trips. One trip to work; one trip to an offsite location; one trip back to work; and one trip back home from work. This is four trips and should be recorded as four seperate entries, correct? Eric |
Hi Jason and Ericbecky:
___If there were a highest segment (Absolute), a highest tank average, and a lifetime average (lmpg), data blocks, I don’t see where the problem would lye? Keeping track of every trip is nuts. It is hard enough to keep up with the climbing averages as the warmer weather is approaching. The Absolute’s and Highest tank averages are great to see but the lmpg’s are where the money meets the road. You only need to create an average for the particular car based on that number. The highest tanks and absolutes are to show the new reader what is possible in the cars that have been posted. ___The key is that when someone posts a 108 mpg absolute high segment, they will have to place it into the highest segment only. Seeing 108 mpg in the highest segment, highest tank, and lmpg would kick that data out as false in a heartbeat imho. ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd. ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net |
Important: I did NOT intend for values to be inputted for every single ride in the car. Rather, every tank. I WILL go back and reword everything so that is clear. However, the one field that asks for average trip length -- that is the average time you are in the car for each ride of this tank.
Xcel, I can make available hi's and lo's on a car's detailed page, but this information will NEVER make it to the main mileage page. The main page needs to be accurate average data for cars. This is my todo list: 1) Reword the database 2) Create an interface for hi's/lo's |
D-oh!
I thought "trip time" meant the exact amount of time you were in the car that trip! I will remove/change my data! I have the last 5 tankfuls (as well as two others) which I will enter. Sorry!!!!!!!! Eric |
It's quite alright. As you can see, I have already changed much of the text so that people know exactly what I'm looking for. Right now I'm adding a new interface to add high or low trips to a car or override all data with a LMPG.
BTW how do you like the new hybrid-to-nonhybrid comparison on the front page? |
Ahhhhhhhh. That's better.
Now I am with the program. Eric |
IMPORTANT:
I have spent literally the whole second half of my day rewriting much of the database code to add new features. It is now possible to define a best trip, a worst trip, and override all database calculations with your own LMPG and ODO reading. It may sound simple, but it was definitely tricky to integrate it into the entire database, because it simply was not equipped to deal with values overriding other values. PLEASE try some things out and if you spot any bugs, let me know. Hopefully tomorrow I'll send out an email to anyone who has posted data yet and inform them of the new changes so that they can update/fix their data. Lastly, is everything more self-explanatory now? I have completed most of the "changes" I decided to make in order to have more reliable data. What do you think? |
i really liked how i didnt have to select the month or location again.
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lol. I put in lik 6 hours of work and all you notice is something that took me 5 minutes to do? :)
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its the little things ;-)
i like the comparison of the non-hybrid to hybrid fuel cost. the only peave i have about that is that the non-hybrid fuel cost istn really a representation of the non-hybrids of people that actually care what they pay at the pump. |
I don't see what you mean. The only data I used from the DOE were the # of vehicles (irrelevant) and the mileage of these cars. For reasons of comparison, I calculated gallons and cost based on the same distance as our hybrids traveled.
If you mean that these car owners don't TRY to get better fuel economy, you're probably right. But, what statistics should I compare to? Anyway, this IS a hybrid site -- expect to find a little bias :) Then again, I assume that the stats I gathered are based on EPA, which most know are inflated figures. If this is true, then the non-hybrid mileage figure is actually HIGH! |
errr, well that is the average for all non-hybrid vehicles on the road right? i dont think that average is really a representation of the average mpg of cars purchased by people who care...not really a problem...just a peave...like having to turn the key different directions on the passenger vs. the drivers side of the car in toyotas...
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Oh, who cares :) It's government statistics. You can fight it out with them.
I need to hunt down any remaining bugs in the code, tomorrow. |
Thanks for the changes and clarifications. I have added the additional details. I am coiming up on a new tank soon. It should be my best ever. I look forward to posting it.
I like the hybrid to non-hybrid comparison. Very clever! Eric |
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