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Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes Wednesday, November 25, 2009 WASHINGTON — Toyota Motor Corp. will replace gas pedals on 3.8 million recalled vehicles in the United States to address problems with sudden acceleration or the pedal becoming stuck in the floor mat, The Associated Press has learned. As a temporary step, Toyota will have dealers shorten the length of the gas pedals beginning in January while the company develops replacement pedals for their vehicles, the department said in a statement provided to the AP. New pedals will be available beginning in April, and some vehicles will have brake override systems installed as a precaution. Toyota, the world's largest automaker, was expected to provide more details Wednesday on the fix. The Japanese automaker announced the massive recall in late September and told owners to remove the driver's side floor mats to prevent the gas pedal from potentially becoming jammed. Popular vehicles such as the Toyota Camry, the top-selling passenger car in America, and the Toyota Prius, the best-selling gas-electric hybrid, are part of the recall. It includes the 2007-10 model year Camry, 2005-10 Toyota Avalon, 2004-09 Prius, 2005-10 Toyota Tacoma, 2007-10 Toyota Tundra, 2007-10 Lexus ES350 and 2006-10 Lexus IS250/350. On Tuesday, Toyota announced a recall of 110,000 Tundra trucks from the 2000-03 model years to address excessive rust on the vehicle's frame. The recall involving the accelerators was Toyota's largest in the U.S. It was prompted by a high-speed crash in August involving a 2009 Lexus ES350 that killed a California Highway Patrol officer and three members of his family near San Diego. The Lexus hit speeds exceeding 120 mph, struck a sport utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and burst into flames. A family member in the runaway Lexus made a frantic 911 call moments before the crash, telling emergency responders that the accelerator was stuck and the driver couldn't stop the car. The call ended as someone was overheard urging others to hold on and pray, followed by a woman's scream. In Japan, Toyota President Akio Toyota called the fatal crash "extremely regrettable" and offered his "deepest condolences" to the California family. Investigators with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage was slightly longer than the mat that belonged in the vehicle, and could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal. The government has attributed at least five deaths and two injuries to floor mat-related unintended acceleration in the Toyota vehicles and has received reports of more than 100 incidents in which the accelerator may have become stuck. A Massachusetts-based safety consultant who has investigated the Toyota cases, however, has found more than 2,000 incidents involving 16 deaths and 243 injuries potentially tied to the Toyota gas pedals. To fix the problem, Transportation officials said dealers will shorten the length of the accelerator pedal on the recalled vehicles and in some cases remove foam from beneath the carpeting near the pedal. They said owners of the ES350, Camry and Avalon would be the first to receive notification because the vehicles are believed to have the highest risk for pedal entrapment. Toyota plans to install a brake override system on the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models as an "extra measure of confidence," NHTSA said. The brake override system, commonly called a "smart brake," will ensure the vehicle will stop if both the brake and the accelerator pedals are applied simultaneously. Dealers will be instructed on how to modify the pedals before the end of the year and will begin shortening the accelerators in 2010. New replacement pedals are expected to be available for some models beginning in April and will be provided even if the vehicles have already received a modified pedal under the recall. The automaker and government regulators have been discussing a potential fix for several weeks. In late September, Toyota announced the recall and told owners to remove driver's side floor mats and not replace them until the company had determined a remedy for the problem. The automaker said unhooked floor mats or replacement mats stacked on top of the originals could lead to stuck accelerators. In early November, Toyota issued a statement saying NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured." But in a rare rebuke, NHTSA accused Toyota of releasing misleading information about the recall, saying removing the mats did not "correct the underlying defect." Toyota said it was not the company's intention to mislead anyone. For more information, owners can contact Toyota at 800-331-4331 or the NHTSA hot line at 888-327-4236. FoxNews.com There is another thread on a similar topic dealing with the floor mat issue located here. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
I imagine this is an extremely expensive item
Toyota plans to install a brake override system on the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models as an "extra measure of confidence," NHTSA said. The brake override system, commonly called a "smart brake," will ensure the vehicle will stop if both the brake and the accelerator pedals are applied simultaneously. Not an auto expert, but this can't be as easy as throwing in a new set of mats. (I imagine Gettelfinger and the rest of the UAW are grinning ear to ear on this one) |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Considering the Camry has a drive by wire configuration, it *could* be as simple as a software update to the ECU. We'll find out over the next few months...
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
The brake override system might not actually cost much at all on a per-unit basis. It might be just a software change. These vehicles already have the sensor to detect when the brake pedal is being pushed. The ABS and VSC units in the braking system are already connected to the CAN (Car Area Network), as is the ECM (Engine Control Module). The three units can already communicate with each other through the CAN. Conceptually, the brake system could tell the ECM when the brake is pressed, and the ECM could idle the engine until the brake is released, just as if the gas pedal was not depressed.
Of course, in any safety-related change, the engineering design and validation must be done carefully. So even if it just small software change, the engineering work might cost millions and take a year or longer to do. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
I think it will be fascinating to learn if they will just R&R the plastic bit that your foot touches, or if indeed they will replace the whole assembly, including the position transducer. The latter would be much more expensive and could suggest something beyond floor mat interference.
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
If there's a defect here, it's piling one mat on top of the other or ignoring/defeating the hooks that prevent a mat from "riding up."
I've look at our 07Camry Hybrid. It doesn't look like a properly secured mat could interfere with the gas pedal. I guess lopping of an inch or two from the gas pedal top will make even more difficult to get into trouble. The best solution may be to skip mats entirely and upgrade the carpet so it'll take more wear and tear. Better yet, install a hard rubber floor. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
My two cents....the mat issue is nonsense.
it's a scapegoat that they created. It's probably a software or some other type of computer glitch. Since they can't figure out how or why, they've created story about the pedals. My father's Accord had unintended acceleration three times in six months. It wasn't the mat. The mat issue is a fiction. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
>>My two cents....the mat issue is nonsense.
Could be. But there's even less basis for speculating that it's a software or computer problem. It is possible for one mat piled on top of another to cause a problem. And it is possible for an improperly secured mat to "ride up." Might there be other gremlins at work here? Sure, but then I guess it could be anything. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by lzc
(Post 214452)
>>My two cents....the mat issue is nonsense.
Could be. But there's even less basis for speculating that it's a software or computer problem. It is possible for one mat piled on top of another to cause a problem. And it is possible for an improperly secured mat to "ride up." Might there be other gremlins at work here? Sure, but then I guess it could be anything. Also, as I've suggested in other threads, the breathtaking lengths Toyota went to in denial of a problem with a part as comparatively trivial as a sun visor does not speak well for their anticipated honesty and candor when a real big problem comes along. I think Toyota grew too big too fast and we are starting to see some serious quality fade as a result. I hope they get their act together soon. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
so, will we, the owners of TCH get recall letters from dealers, telling us to come to the dealer shop and get the brake pedal fixed for free?
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
that's usually how recalls work, but to be sure, contact the dealer.
For more information, owners can contact Toyota at 800-331-4331 or the NHTSA hot line at 888-327-4236. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
According to consumerist.com it will be a 3-part deal.
1. Immediately bring in the cars and literally cut 3/4" off the bottom of the pedal. 2. Starting in April, the entire pedal assembly will be replaced. 3. Around the same time a sfw patch will be installed to ensure complete override authority to the braking system in the event of competing inputs. Floor Mats huh? :confused: Step 1 ought to cover that. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
>>>...Except that ABC News has reported over 2,000 such incidents, many of which had no floor mats installed at all.
For people disinclined to believe Toyota, I'd be equally skeptical of reporting by the news media. It's difficult for me to believe Toyota would go through the expense of a 2-stage recall of nearly 4 million cars unless they thought it would solve the problem. Obviously, if they're wrong, we'll know soon enough. The problem will continue. What will they have gained? They could be wrong, but I doubt they'd do this knowing they're wrong. As to the famous Lexus crash driven by a CHP officer, it was a rental car. Were the mats properly secured? I don't think we know. A passenger phoned 911 and reported the gas pedal was stuck. I think--someone correct me if I'm wrong--that it takes a physical force to override the pedal's natural tension to return to its "off" position. And one shouldn't forget the Audi episode. After years of damming allegations, a brand almost destroyed, NHTSA and independent investigations concluded that the sudden acceleration problem was caused by "driver error." When Audi installed a shift interlock system to prevent the driver from shifting out of park unless his foot was on the brake, surprise, the problem disappeared. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by McGyver
(Post 214479)
Floor Mats huh? Step 1 ought to cover that.
This recall isn't about a defect in the machinery. It's about careless drivers. Next, I expect to see claims about defective front bumpers, because they occasionally hit trees. No matter how you design the gas pedal and floor mats, some drivers will continue to place foreign objects on top of the gas pedal. The software change, so that the brake will over-ride the accelerator, is probably a good idea. Even if the issues are really caused by driver stupidity, that software change will very likely prevent most of the consequences. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
>>Starting in April, the entire pedal assembly will be replaced.
I'll speculate. They may be repositioning the pedal a little higher off the floor to make it less likely a mat could interfere. Appearance may also be part of the reason. I can't imagine a cut off gas pedal is going to look as finished as one expects in a Toyota interior. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Regardless, you can bet some clever marketeer is looking at ways to get you to buy additional parts and services when you bring in your vehicle (2 times) for the "service".
JUST LIKE THE GOVERNMENT - NEFVER LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE! |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by Red
(Post 214484)
Regardless, you can bet some clever marketeer is looking at ways to get you to buy additional parts and services when you bring in your vehicle (2 times) for the "service".
JUST LIKE THE GOVERNMENT - NEFVER LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE! I would also caution against being the first ones in the door for this recall. I'd give it a month or so. Too many things can go wrong between the issuance of a mandate and when the technicians figure out the best way to implement it. Case in point... the early Volvo S-80's had a recall on the ball joints. The official factory tool to pull down the control arms was scarce and when used, it frequently tore up the rubber bushings reducing their useful life. A couple of clever technicians in our shop figured out how to use a load strap for flatbed tractor-trailers to do the job in 1/3rd the time, with no damage. The factory rep just shook his head and walked away when he saw that because it was so bush league, yet it worked far better than what the engineers specified. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by lzc
(Post 214481)
As to the famous Lexus crash driven by a CHP officer, it was a rental car. Were the mats properly secured?
Originally Posted by lzc
(Post 214481)
And one shouldn't forget the Audi episode....
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by SteveHansen
(Post 214620)
Actually, we do know. The NHTSA report says, specifically, both that the mats in that rental car were the wrong mats for the car, and that they were not secured..
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by SteveHansen
(Post 214620)
...I'm sure that is precisely why Toyota is doing this recall. Even though the issue is clearly "driver error", there is something they can do to protect the brand and their reputation, and so they are doing it.
I believe the NHTSA forces the manufacturer to do the recall, I don't believe they do it voluntarily... Of course, this is only my opinion, but I believe it to be how it works. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by haroldo
(Post 214621)
While they weren't secured, as per the report, were they lodged on the pedals in a position that would indicate that the mats were the cause...or were they just not secured? (leading to speculation)
I think it is pretty clear that the floor mat was the problem. Sure, 99.99% certainty is not "completely certain", but it's close enough for any practical purposes. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
From Consumer Reports:
"According to the NHTSA report, the mats in the Lexus ES 350 that Saylor was driving were made for a Lexus RX 400h SUV, not the ES 350 sedan." "The gas pedal was fused to the mat in the fire that ensued after the crash." |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
?? How can a manufacturer be responsible for the placement of the wrong floor mat in a rental car?
Skeptic that I am... and having had a brother who is ex-CHP and hearing some of his 'personal' adventures ... It wouldn't be beyond a shadow of a doubt that this dude was doing well above a safe and sane speed for the conditions BEFORE the incident. Honkin' down the hills and curves in an unfamiliar car loaded with family, perhaps?? Showing them how its done? And why was there time for a 911 call??? saying they were doing 120mph??? Maybe the caller was requesting help because the driver was out of control??? Murder - suicide comes to mind..... Anything is possible. Being a 'boy in blue' does not raise this chaps talents or abilities beyond that of normal folk. Although one would think.... one WOULD think... that somewhere his training would have covered what to do in such an emergency. Maybe he did follow his training and it was all wrong??? We'll never know what his response was... maybe he thought he could 'drive' it out? He just got caught out by a cascade of events leading to his demise and his family. The fire fused mat is only one link in the chain of events.... and it many not even be the first link (and probably isn't!!!) .... Its just an incidental finding and may not even be related (as noted in the reports) to the accident nor can it be demonstrated that it is the 'root cause.' It is a popular and newsprint selling story.... but the press often gets it all wrong. Need we point to the Ft. Hood stories??? Or, the UFO balloon fiasco???? I, for one, am going to wait several months until the proper parts are available for a repair. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Now we hear about problems with the Corolla models losing power - more bad press for Toyota to deal with.
I checked the floor mats on our '09 TCH and they don't even come close to the accelerator so I won't let anyone "trim" anything. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by KenSoren
(Post 215007)
I checked the floor mats on our '09 TCH and they don't even come close to the accelerator so I won't let anyone "trim" anything.
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
>>Same here. Something else is wrong.
I can understand why some people think that. It looks impossible for the intended floor mat, properly secured, to cause the problem. But my understanding is that these accidents typically had people who'd piled a winter mat on top of the one already there so that it wasn't secured and was closer to the gas pedal. Or they had the wrong mat. While NHTSA is careful not to rule out another cause, to date they've only been able to document a floor mat problem. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
So has anyone heard anything from Toyota yet?
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Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Speculation....
You may remember there was a TSB about floor mats earlier, especially for people that put the winter mats on top of the carpet mats. Now they seem to be addressing people that put aftermarket mats in their car. I feel a bit bad for Toyota that they have to address a problem cause either by people not following instructions, or aftermarket products. As others have noted, if you use the proper mats properly, it doesn't cause a problem. Just follows the trend to no personal responsibility at all..... Cheers! Dang |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Careful there my Canadian brother...
An 09 Avalon went full speed, out-of-control in Nevada this week. Killed two, injured two. No floor mats. I have big, thick aftermarket mats over my OEM mats, to keep the original mats nice. I have got myself down in the foot well and slid those mats around a hundred different ways. There is just......... no way. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by McGyver
(Post 216070)
Careful there my Canadian brother...
An 09 Avalon went full speed, out-of-control in Nevada this week. Killed two, injured two. No floor mats. I have big, thick aftermarket mats over my OEM mats, to keep the original mats nice. I have got myself down in the foot well and slid those mats around a hundred different ways. There is just......... no way. Right now it looks like any accident involving the affected Toyotas will have the press questioning if it had something to do with the accelerator first and then looking at the facts. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by McGyver
(Post 216070)
I have big, thick aftermarket mats over my OEM mats.....
I too have mats, in my case the Toyota "winter" mats, but took the OEM mats out when I put these in. In the summer, I take the winter mats out and put the OEM mats back. It takes all of 5 seconds to take the OEM ones out, and they stay perfectly clean in my basement, so I just don't get why people are putting two sets of mats in their car at the same time??? With the Toyota winter mats installed properly (on the factory hooks) there is "no way, no how" you can get them to interfere with the accelerator pedal no matter how hard you try. On the flip side, there is "no way, no how" you can properly install two sets of mats at the same time. The factory hooks will simply not secure both sets of mats. Now, if there is something "breaking" that's causing this, then that's a different story, but so far the accidents seemed to have been related to improperly installed mats. Am i missing something??? Dang |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by Old-Crows
(Post 214645)
And why was there time for a 911 call??? saying they were doing 120mph??? Maybe the caller was requesting help because the driver was out of control??? Murder - suicide comes to mind..... Anything is possible.
This is another excellent point. Audi showed that even with the accelerator floored, you could easily stop the car with the brakes. Assuming they are working properly, brakes can always overpower the engine. But lets assume the brakes overheated or something and couldn't stop the car. My car has this wonderful thing called a shift lever. Put the shift lever in neutral, and the engine no longer sends any power to the wheels and the car will coast to a stop (or use the service or parking brake). Sure, the engine will redline, so what? Shift lever broke as well? My car also has this neat thing called an ignition switch. (ok, it's a button in my car). Push it, and it turns the engine off! There is no reason to just let a car accelerate out of control no matter what happens to the throttle. It's incomprehensible that a CHP officer of all people didn't know these very very basic functions of a car. That they killed their family in the process, is just tragic. Sad.... Dang |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
At the risk of repeating myself...the mats are just a scape goat.
No one wants to admit it's a software glitch or bug, so they look for an easy to understand physical culprit. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by Dang
(Post 216095)
Crows....
This is another excellent point. Audi showed that even with the accelerator floored, you could easily stop the car with the brakes. Assuming they are working properly, brakes can always overpower the engine. But lets assume the brakes overheated or something and couldn't stop the car. My car has this wonderful thing called a shift lever. Put the shift lever in neutral, and the engine no longer sends any power to the wheels and the car will coast to a stop (or use the service or parking brake). Sure, the engine will redline, so what? Shift lever broke as well? My car also has this neat thing called an ignition switch. (ok, it's a button in my car). Push it, and it turns the engine off! There is no reason to just let a car accelerate out of control no matter what happens to the throttle. It's incomprehensible that a CHP officer of all people didn't know these very very basic functions of a car. That they killed their family in the process, is just tragic. Sad.... Dang |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by Dang
(Post 216094)
OK, I don't get it. Just take the OEM mats out!
I too have mats, in my case the Toyota "winter" mats, but took the OEM mats out when I put these in. In the summer, I take the winter mats out and put the OEM mats back. It takes all of 5 seconds to take the OEM ones out, and they stay perfectly clean in my basement, so I just don't get why people are putting two sets of mats in their car at the same time??? With the Toyota winter mats installed properly (on the factory hooks) there is "no way, no how" you can get them to interfere with the accelerator pedal no matter how hard you try. On the flip side, there is "no way, no how" you can properly install two sets of mats at the same time. The factory hooks will simply not secure both sets of mats. Now, if there is something "breaking" that's causing this, then that's a different story, but so far the accidents seemed to have been related to improperly installed mats. Am i missing something??? Dang The OEM mats have two mechanical hooks to hold them in place and they have a good thick pile, into which the spikes on the aftermarket mats can dig in quite well. Thus, the combination of spiky aftermarket mats over OEM mats, in turn hooked to the floor. I realize it's a bit weird, but does it make sense? The OEM mats area also terribly expensive. I have big feet and work around transportation facilities. Every couple of weeks I peel out the aftermarket mats and shake them out. About once per year, I just throw them away and put in new ones. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
I simply do not believe that a modern throttle system would have a bug that would cause a stuck full-throttle condition, after more than ten years of testing and five years of production. In the particular example, they found an oversized floor mat on top of the gas pedal, and fused to the gas pedal. Occams Razor applies -- the simple, obvious explanation is almost certainly the real explanation.
Hence, the main thing that is needed is due care by the driver. Airplane pilots do a 'pre-flight' checklist, to look at a bunch of safety-related things before taking off. That pre-flight check is critical in an airplane. After you take off in an airplane, you WILL be landing, it is only a question of where and in what condition. I do a short 'pre-drive' checklist before starting to drive. I look at the tires and the windows. I look for failure indicator lights on the dash, check that I have enough fuel for the trip, and that there are not loose objects in the cabin that might cause a problem. It doesn't really take any time. It's mostly just a matter of not being preoccupied by something else. If you look at your floor mat each time you get into the car, it is easy to verify that they will not interfere with the controls. That falls in the category of loose objects that might cause a problem. |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
Originally Posted by McGyver
(Post 216142)
The OEM mats area also terribly expensive. I have big feet and work around transportation facilities. Every couple of weeks I peel out the aftermarket mats and shake them out. About once per year, I just throw them away and put in new ones.
That's a fair comment. The Toyota mats are very expensive, you can get mats at your local auto shop that are a fraction of the price. The Toyota ones do correctly use the hooks. Sounds like the ones you have that dig into the carpet should work. If they don't interfere with the controls, you're good! Sounds like you got ones that work, but it still peaves me that you and I are paying for people that didn't take the trouble to do that. (I don't think the "recall fairy" is going to pay for 3.8M throttles!) Cheers! Dang |
Re: Toyota to Replace 3.8M Gas Pedals After Crashes
How many owners of the 3.8 million cars recalled are likely to participate and have their gas pedal shortened?
1. You think this isn't a floor mat issue, that something else is to blame. If so, you won't be participating. 2. You do think this is likely a floor mat problem, but only when they aren't secured properly or the wrong mats are used. Since you're too smart for either to be an issue, you don't need to participate. 3. Who's left? People who find floor mats complicated, or those who aren't paying attention and just march off to their dealer because they're told to do so. Maybe group 3 is larger than I think. But the idea of letting someone cut off part of your accelerator pedal is too goofy to take seriously. :) |
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