Vivisection of bad Prius
 

What do ya'll think they'll find?

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...gas-pedal.html

March 9 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., struggling to regain a reputation for quality after unintended acceleration forced millions of vehicle recalls, will investigate a report in California of a Prius hybrid car that sped out of control.
The Japanese carmaker learned that the California Highway Patrol was dispatched after a Prius driver in San Diego County called 911 to report a stuck accelerator pedal, Toyota said yesterday on its Web site. A patrol officer helped coach the driver to stop the car, the motorist told reporters.
“I was on the brakes pretty healthy,” James Sikes, the Prius driver, said on NBC after telling news organizations his car reached speeds of 90 mph on U.S. Interstate 8 outside San Diego. “It wasn’t stopping. It wasn’t doing anything to it. It just kept speeding up.”
Toyota, the world’s biggest automaker, has recalled about 8 million vehicles, including top-selling Camry and Corolla cars, to repair defects that may cause unintended acceleration. The carmaker held a press briefing at its U.S. headquarters in Torrance, California, yesterday to rebut a test of its electronic throttle control system cited in testimony to Congress as a possible cause for the flaw.
Sikes told cable channel CNN the accelerator was stuck and wouldn’t move even when he tried to lift it by hand. The car failed to slow down even after Sikes called 911 and followed instructions to get the car to stop.
‘Won’t Drive Car’
A California Highway Patrol officer, alerted by emergency dispatchers, caught up to Sikes and, using his public-address system, asked him to apply the emergency brake and brake pedal at the same time. That worked to slow the car to 50 mph. Then Sikes was able to turn off the ignition, he told CNN.
The responding officer was quoted on NBC saying he saw Sikes’s brake lights were on and smelled that the pads were being applied.
“I won’t drive that car again, period,” Sikes said on NBC.
The model in San Diego “appears to be a second-generation Prius” and not the 2010 model, said Brian Lyons, a spokesman for the automaker. Three Toyota technicians are prepared to inspect the vehicle once it is located, he said.
Sikes had recently serviced the Prius at a local dealer and was informed it wasn’t part of a recall, he told NBC.
Toyota in November recalled 2004 through 2009 model-year Prius hybrids to reshape accelerator pedals that the company said could be entrapped by floor mats. The 2010 model has also been recalled so its braking software could be adjusted.
Further Research
David Gilbert, the Southern Illinois University professor whose research Toyota disputed, said yesterday that he will visit the engineering firm hired by Toyota next week to discuss its methods and procedures.
“I am committed to working with industry, government and other interested parties and hope to provide more conclusive opinions and input as more research and analysis is completed,” Gilbert said in a statement.
Safety Research & Strategies Inc., which funded Gilbert’s test, said the findings show that Toyota is incorrect in asserting its electronics are infallible. Further study is needed, Sean Kane, president of the Rehoboth, Massachusetts- based group, said in an interview.
“While Toyota is out there showing the world it isn’t electronics, we’re going to continue to see incidents like the one in San Diego,” Kane said. “These problems aren’t going to go away for Toyota by saying they don’t exist.”
House Hearing
Safety Research’s clients include attorneys, engineering firms and automotive suppliers, according to its Web site.
The House Energy and Commerce Committee said today a March 11 hearing will focus on oversight of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which can order automotive recalls.
Witnesses will include NHTSA Administrator David Strickland; Dave McCurdy, president and chief executive officer of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers; and Joan Claybrook, a former NHTSA administrator.
--Editors: Steve Geimann, Larry Liebert

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

This is a curious case. It sounds like the brake pedal stuck a la the failure in North American-made Toyotas, but this car would have the Denso pedals. Could this case be an electronic or software failure?

Second, a few weeks ago somebody on these forums posted a notice from Toyota indicating that their hybrids had some form of brake override already (it didn't say what form). Why didn't that work in this case?

Third, the driver finally shut off his engine (he tried more than once, probably not knowing about the 3-second hold requirement when the car is moving). Wouldn't putting it in neutral be the better alternative? It may be hard to think clearly in a panicky situation like that, but this is well-publicized issue and I hope anyone would be prepared for such an event. Maybe some practice runs shifting into neutral while the car is moving would be in order for all of us.

It occurs to me that the elusiveness of these problems is the result of the long-tail phenomenon. Of how many millions of Toyotas on the road, how many dozens or hundreds have had these problems (excluding the floor mats which I think are by far the most common cause of sudden acceleration), after driving how many thousand hours? How many thousands of cars would Toyota therefore have to test, for how many thousands of hours each, to reproduce a given problem once? If there are three separate causes -- floor mats very common (it's happened to me), sticky pedals far less common, and electronic or software failures probably even less common if they do happen at all -- it's easy to see how difficult it is to peel that onion, or more significantly, to know when you've finished peeling it.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

I just have to wonder what it is that triggers the rapid acceleration?

I have a 2004 Prius II and haven't had any of the issues associated with this. I know that my ABS brakes have done some odd pumping on icy roads, but i honestly expect that on such a variable surface. I use the original mats, along with rubber ones molded to the car, with the cleats to hold the mats in place, so I have never had mat issues.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

No mention of the driver pressing the power button for 3+ seconds to stop the HSD or even trying to shift into neutral. If he didn't try either I wonder why?. It sounds like the traditional brakes couldn't stop the car but the emergency brake did? Again makes no sense. I guess I won't know what goes through one's mind until it happens to me. Hopefully it won't.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Hybrid brake systems usually have a pedal force simulation to give the driver feedback like a "normal" vehicle. This way you feel like you are doing the braking but the hybrid system is.

It is possible but EXTREMELY rare to have a hard pedal and no hydraulic actuation. In this case the old school mechanical parking brake would still apply.

And produce the hot brake pad smell the officer spoke of.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

D'oh, I meant "accelerator pedal" of course.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

My understanding is that hard pressure on the brake pedal will cause the friction brakes to engage in addition to regenerative braking. And also that at high speeds you can lose braking power because of loss of engine vacuum.

I thought the officer smelled the brakes when he first got there, not after he told the driver to apply the emergency brake.

I'm really curious to hear what the result of the investigation will be.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Does anyone know what Gilbert did to supposedly reproduce the sudden acceleration? A TV news story I saw said that Toyota's response was that other manufacturers' cars failed the same test. TV news being in the sorry state it is, the story was very unenlightening. Guess it's off to Google-land, now that I know his name.

Also, did Toyota actually claim its electronics were "infallible"? That's not the same as saying "not at fault". "Infallible" is not something a sane designer or manufacturer would claim for any product.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

And I'm back, having found my answer:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/t...-demonstratio/

In short (pun not intended), Gilbert created an unlikely-in-the-real-world fault condition that does not cause an error code.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Since the ICE isn't running in many conditions the hybrid brakes don't depend on engine vacuum.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Thinking more on this... clearly... the advice (from so called 'experts') to nail the brakes and slow down is worthless. When you think on it... despite what 'experts' have said... the brakes will not overcome a vehicle with an commanded acceleration. They will momentarily retard and then lose effectiveness as they heat up. Eventually they will become so hot as to be useless. (And we're talking perfect brake system not one with thousands of miles or years of use that decrease the time to ineffectiveness greatly.) There's a good chance they'll catch on fire... and then the tires. What a silly method to bring an out of control vehicle to a stop.

This is like running down a steep mountain and riding the brakes all the way down. At the bottom you are, likely as not, not to have any braking power. Despite what the 'geniuses' who rationalized that the brakes have enough power to overcome a runaway engine, they don't. Not even the carbon fiber brakes on and F1, Le Mans Prototype, or a Rally Cup car could withstand the heat generated holding against an engine running full tilt.

The only solution here is to push and hold the START/OFF button till the motor stops. Then shift to N.

Now back to the HyCam case. You don't see those brake disks smokin' or any carbon dust on the wheels... or any red glow as they try to shed the built up heat. I don't think this guy's telling the straight dope here on what happened. And... oh... they happened to have a helo available??

Not buying this guys story.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Maybe he's a shill for one of the other auto makers.
Think about it.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

More likely... a shill for a lawyer seeking a huge settlement. Like the ABC story on the throttle problems.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Just saw the car in question on Jolopnick.Com. It has plastic wheel covers. If this guy was really trying to stop the car... like fusing the pads to the disks trying to stop. I'd think those wheel covers would have been turned into melted junk.

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

From what I understand, the California Prius driver stood on his brakes, causing them to smoke/overheat so apparently they were working.

Sounds to me like it proved to be a case of fighting "The little engine that could".

Re: Vivisection of bad Prius
 

Toyota hybrids are supposed to have a fuel shutoff mechanism that's activated by hard pressure on the brakes -- which is why the recalls for the hybrid models don't include reprogramming to add an override, like the other models do.

One of the following must be true:

1. Toyota is lying and there is no shutoff mechanim -- though it's hard to believe they'd risk getting caught in a lie over something so readily verifiable.
2. There is a shutoff but for some reason it didn't work in this case.
or 3. The guy is lying (as others have speculated).

Brakes vs Engine: The final showdown
 

I found a recent article in Car & Driver very entertaining (I'm a sucker for car magazine writers' humor) regarding what to do if UA happens to you. The magazine tested samples of very different cars from a modest daily driver to a hi-po monster Mustang. In all cases, even at WOT and high speeds, all cars were stopped under control using only the road brakes.

Here's a link to article: http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept

Attachment 1394

Now granted, I have never tried this stunt with any of my cars, not even a buddies' or a rental, so I cannot comment on how capable this method of "slam on the brakes with both legs and don't panic" is in controlling real world UA.

I am however, personally acquainted with the phenomenon of instantly losing half your IQ when panicked.:eek: For most people, in order to respond best in a survival situation (such as seemingly loosing control of your personal 2 ton wrecking ball on wheels), the desired responses must be trained and drilled into your subconscience through realistic practice.

My humble guess is we are in the midst of a media fuelled mass hysteria (think Audi 5000 in mid 1980s) and there are some drivers who, despite what they insist to have happened, are mistakenly pressing the wrong pedal and panicking when their vehicle doesn't slow.

Prehaps this latest outbreak of "crazy autos with crazy drivers" will convince the DOTs and DMVs that we need to radically overhaul the US's lax Drivers' Education standards (the right to an operators' license to anyone with half a pulse:D) and provide our drivers with real skills and capabilities to deal with an uncertain world.