1000lb interior load and electric assist on 11% uphill

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  #31  
Old 04-19-2009, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: 1000lb interior load and electric assist on 11% uphill

Originally Posted by MyPart
There has to be some type of clutch. How else can you flat tow the FEH?
I don't know why Willard said there is no brake or one-way-clutch (OWC) in the FEH eCVT because there is. Motor/Generator 1 (MG1) has a brake and there is a OWC between the crank shaft and the gear set. In fact, the workshop manual warns about getting any contaminates on the OWC during assembly of the engine to the eCVT.

GaryG
 
  #32  
Old 04-19-2009, 04:01 PM
Bill Winney's Avatar
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Default Re: 1000lb interior load and electric assist on 11% uphill

No clutches etc. The FEH transaxle is an elegantly simple machine. Just don't need clutches.

A uni-directional coupling, not really a "clutch," makes alot of sense for the ICE. There has to be an oil pump in the transaxle somewhere, allowing one or both of the synchronous machines to turn when towing may well turn this pump, ensuring oil to the transaxle bearings.

At any rate, the simpler the machine, the fewer the problems over its life. This is why I believe this transaxle to be an elegant solution to the problem of a hybrid.

Since you might do what both of the synchronous machines do with just one, I wonder how long it took them to decide to use two. I believe this was the better solution, far better, but such leaps of thinking sometimes don't come easily. From that decision came the "three way" planetary gear set, another elegant design decision.

I use "three way" because in many planetary gear sets one of the three possible rotating elements is fixed. One Ford adaptation could be for one machine to "hold" an element fixed in some situations to better deliver torque & power to the wheels from the other sources.

I hope it is clear from the info provided in the two posts about towing that this is a well engineered and solid car. I believe that is precisely what the info shows.
 
  #33  
Old 04-20-2009, 08:52 AM
wwest's Avatar
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Default Re: 1000lb interior load and electric assist on 11% uphill

Originally Posted by gpsman1
FACT: The Traction motor can spin forward, or reverse.
FACT: The Generator motor can spin forward, or reverse.
FACT: The ICE can only spin on one direction, let's call that "forward".
FACT: There is a one-way clutch on the engine to prevent either of the electric motors from attempting to spin the ICE backwards.

FACT: There is mention of a "generator brake" in the Ford manuals, and there are Ford published block diagrams showing the position of a generator brake.

It could be that the more corerct term would be "generator/brake", as in generator AS brake.

I have never seen an actual photo of the generator brake, so I don't know the type, size, or exact position.

FACT: The traction motor and generator motor "free wheel" spin when the car is being towed.

NO, the MG1 & MG2 rotors are of the permanent magnet type so free-spinning would still provide a "moving" magnet field within the stators, result being inadvertent voltage generation with "nowhere" to go.

That's why Ford has supplied an electric clutch for the e/CVT output that is disenaged any time the "ignition" is off. There is also an inertial switch that will instantly disengage this same clutch if the vehicle is struck from behind while the "ignition" is on. If the FEH is suddenly pushed forward by the impact the resulting output voltage from the MGs might be enough to destroy the electronics.

This is totally acceptible and Ford engineered it to have this capability. This is due to the FACT that this car has no true "Neutral" and the gears of the planetary transmission are always in mesh.

The FEH/MMH only has a "simulated" neutral. Neutral in this car means electrical power is removed from both motors only.

No, neutral is implemented on the Toyota HSD design via turning at least one, if not both, of the AC motors "opposite" to the ICE input thereby making the e/CVT output "sum" equal to ZERO.

All the gears remain in mesh. I designed a simple experiment to prove this and you can try the same.

Put the car's front wheels in the air on jack stands.
Start the ICE, then place the car in simulated neutral.
The wheels will turn very slowly in neutral if they are in the air and there is no friction with the road to hold them steady. Not much torque mind you, but it is greater than zero. ( sometimes you will need to push start the wheels in moton, but then they will spin on their own in "neutral" )

HTH,
-John
I like the wheels in the air on jack stands idea. But don't do this with the F/awd FEH without first pulling the electric plug on the rear drive clutch.

Now put the FEH in drive and hold one wheel still....the "opposite" wheel rotates, right...?

Now try and turn "your" wheel in the opposite direction fast enough to bring that "opposite" wheel to a full stop.

You have just simulated how neutral works with the ICE running.

The e/CVT is driving the input to the front differential but you are holding the opposite wheel stationary via opposite spin of "your" wheel. That's how the e/CVT implements neutral, the MG(s) spin opposite to the ICE input therefore the output drive SUM is ZERO.
 

Last edited by wwest; 04-20-2009 at 09:00 AM.
  #34  
Old 04-20-2009, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: 1000lb interior load and electric assist on 11% uphill

Voltage with no where to go is harmless.
Voltage without amperage is harmless.

There can be a potential of 100,000 volts on the wool sweater I'm wearing.

The motors can and do spin "free wheel" when the car is rolling in neutral.
This has been proven, and anyone with a FEH ( NOT WILLARD WEST ) can see the motors spin with their own eyes and a ScanGauge.

I only speak the truth, not crapola like that outher guy who doesn't even own the car!

A motor/generator can spin harmlessly with an open circuit.
Neutral is simply an open circuit, and this info comes directly from FORD.
 
  #35  
Old 04-20-2009, 02:01 PM
wwest's Avatar
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Default Re: 1000lb interior load and electric assist on 11% uphill

Originally Posted by gpsman1
Voltage with no where to go is harmless.
Voltage without amperage is harmless.

There can be a potential of 100,000 volts on the wool sweater I'm wearing.

The motors can and do spin "free wheel" when the car is rolling in neutral.
This has been proven, and anyone with a FEH ( NOT WILLARD WEST ) can see the motors spin with their own eyes and a ScanGauge.

I only speak the truth, not crapola like that outher guy who doesn't even own the car!

A motor/generator can spin harmlessly with an open circuit.
Neutral is simply an open circuit, and this info comes directly from FORD.
Why not tell that story to the space shuttle crew that ran the experiment using a long trailing wire to cut through the Earth's magnetic fields as they circled the Earth and "generate" electricity, electrical power.

Do you happen to know how an ignition coil works...??

I would guess that the solid state electronics in the FEH can sustain no more than 2000 volts before breakdown and failure.

Turn the magnetic rotor in the AC motor fast enough or quick enough without a load to drain off the resulting voltage and that voltage would undoubtedly rise high enough to "punch" through any insulating layer.

Just as with/if you have enough moisture in the air the static voltage in your sweater would be drained off before it rises high enough to draw a spark. A "strong" enough spark that were there a semiconductor in the arc's path it would be destroyed, no longer functional.

And remember if the system is under power, the "ignition" is on, during coasting free-wheeling the system will bleed off any power generated. I frankly don't know just what would happen if the battery reached a full state of charge under this scenario. Maybe the engineers have thought of that and provided a "crowbar" circuit by disengaging the driveline clutch.

PS: I will always remain embarrassed about the number of "high voltage/current" transistors I destroyed back in the early 70's trying to recover energy from a permanent magnet stepper motor's magnetic drive field but not having enough "storage space" (capacitor bank) which resulted in the voltage rising too high.
 

Last edited by wwest; 04-20-2009 at 02:05 PM.
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