E85 with Flextek
#11
10-31-2006, 01:29 PM
Re: E85 with Flextek
Originally Posted by snax
http://www.flextek.com/
Has anybody had any experience with this? They don't list the FEH, but it seems to me that it should work as well on it as any other vehicle.
Has anybody had any experience with this? They don't list the FEH, but it seems to me that it should work as well on it as any other vehicle.
There would be two other commnets on this. One is that most of these conversions are not EPA approved, selling something that modifies vechicle in a way that is not EPA approved is against federal law.
The second is that its not approved by Ford. So you can be assured that if one put one of these kits on their FEH, the warranty on the engine will be void.
#12
10-31-2006, 06:04 PM
Re: E85 with Flextek
Originally Posted by snax
Well the injector sizing issue actually rarely is a significant issue. Most vehicles sold today have 20-30% extra injector capacity that is never used on standard fuel. And as I understand it, the Flextek simply extends the injector on time by a similar amount.
I don't buy the idea that other parts are incompatible with the ethanol however. The cost of producing cars with ethanol compatibility vs. without is inconsequential.
The one thing that I'm virtually certain of however is that the evaporative system is probably not up to EPA standards for vapor capture, but when you are running something that produces far fewer harmful emissions at the tailpipe, is government red tape over evaporative emissions for manufacturers something that should stop the average person from converting?
So assuming the internals of the engine and fuel system actually are compatible with E85, the only real question remaining is whether the injectors are sized to increase fuel that much. I suspect that they are, but I can see the flip side of that being that smaller injectors meter fuel more precisely and may have been chosen in an effort to better fuel economy, leaving us without the capacity or ability to make the FEH run E85 effectively without other changes.
I don't buy the idea that other parts are incompatible with the ethanol however. The cost of producing cars with ethanol compatibility vs. without is inconsequential.
The one thing that I'm virtually certain of however is that the evaporative system is probably not up to EPA standards for vapor capture, but when you are running something that produces far fewer harmful emissions at the tailpipe, is government red tape over evaporative emissions for manufacturers something that should stop the average person from converting?
So assuming the internals of the engine and fuel system actually are compatible with E85, the only real question remaining is whether the injectors are sized to increase fuel that much. I suspect that they are, but I can see the flip side of that being that smaller injectors meter fuel more precisely and may have been chosen in an effort to better fuel economy, leaving us without the capacity or ability to make the FEH run E85 effectively without other changes.
Cheers,
rcomeau
#13
10-31-2006, 06:53 PM
Re: E85 with Flextek
Evaporated ethanol does what to the environment? Drunk bees? 
Ok, perhaps there are other hazards to worry about with it. I honestly don't know.
I'm not going to argue that these things are or are not legal, only that they likely CAN be applied effectively to the FEH barring an issue with injector sizing.
Frankly, if I were using a Flextek on any of my vehicles, I would try to refrain from running it at full throttle as I don't know what the consequences to that would be. Injectors that are overdriven can burn out, but more often they just fail to provide enough fuel, running the engine lean. The flip side of that however is that ethanol has a higher octane rating and a cooler combustion temperature, offsetting the amount of lean running an engine can tolerate in the right direction.
Ok, perhaps there are other hazards to worry about with it. I honestly don't know.
I'm not going to argue that these things are or are not legal, only that they likely CAN be applied effectively to the FEH barring an issue with injector sizing.
Frankly, if I were using a Flextek on any of my vehicles, I would try to refrain from running it at full throttle as I don't know what the consequences to that would be. Injectors that are overdriven can burn out, but more often they just fail to provide enough fuel, running the engine lean. The flip side of that however is that ethanol has a higher octane rating and a cooler combustion temperature, offsetting the amount of lean running an engine can tolerate in the right direction.
#14
11-01-2006, 05:35 AM
Re: E85 with Flextek
Originally Posted by snax
Evaporated ethanol does what to the environment? Drunk bees?
Ok, perhaps there are other hazards to worry about with it. I honestly don't know.
I'm not going to argue that these things are or are not legal, only that they likely CAN be applied effectively to the FEH barring an issue with injector sizing.
Frankly, if I were using a Flextek on any of my vehicles, I would try to refrain from running it at full throttle as I don't know what the consequences to that would be. Injectors that are overdriven can burn out, but more often they just fail to provide enough fuel, running the engine lean. The flip side of that however is that ethanol has a higher octane rating and a cooler combustion temperature, offsetting the amount of lean running an engine can tolerate in the right direction.
Ok, perhaps there are other hazards to worry about with it. I honestly don't know.
I'm not going to argue that these things are or are not legal, only that they likely CAN be applied effectively to the FEH barring an issue with injector sizing.
Frankly, if I were using a Flextek on any of my vehicles, I would try to refrain from running it at full throttle as I don't know what the consequences to that would be. Injectors that are overdriven can burn out, but more often they just fail to provide enough fuel, running the engine lean. The flip side of that however is that ethanol has a higher octane rating and a cooler combustion temperature, offsetting the amount of lean running an engine can tolerate in the right direction.
Cheers,
rcomeau
#15
11-01-2006, 06:42 AM
Re: E85 with Flextek
Originally Posted by TeeSter
. . . selling something that modifies vechicle in a way that is not EPA approved is against federal law.
In general I know that is not true. If that were the case, you would have to replace every worn out part with the exact OEM replacement since the use of anything else might be deemed to be a 'modification'. What I understand is illegal is modification of emissions control equipment. Further, we have from the Flextek maker's FAQ:
Is the FlexTek device EPA certified?
The EPA has actually condoned converting vehicles, saying "... consumers who want existing vehicles to accommodate ethanol-blended gasoline beyond E10 might have to modify engines..."
They never suggest that such modification may be subject to EPA certification.1
Also, according to the EPA, our modification does not violate the Anti-tampering law as long as we have a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected.2
We do have a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected:
According to the Iowa Department of Agriculture:
Ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline:
E85 vehicles reduce harmful hydrocarbon and benzene emissions when compared to vehicles running on gasoline: and
E85 can also reduce carbon dioxide (C02),3
Even though we believe use of our product does not violate the Anti-tampering law, we are proceeding with EPA approved testing to demonstrate the effectiveness of our conversion system.
1 EPA Bulletin #EPA420-F-00-035
2 EPA Bulleting #EPA420-B-00-003, page 11, paragraph 4
3 http://publications.iowa.gov/archive/00001745/01/e85q&a.html
Which is about as clear as mud!The EPA has actually condoned converting vehicles, saying "... consumers who want existing vehicles to accommodate ethanol-blended gasoline beyond E10 might have to modify engines..."
They never suggest that such modification may be subject to EPA certification.1
Also, according to the EPA, our modification does not violate the Anti-tampering law as long as we have a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected.2
We do have a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected:
According to the Iowa Department of Agriculture:
Ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline:
E85 vehicles reduce harmful hydrocarbon and benzene emissions when compared to vehicles running on gasoline: and
E85 can also reduce carbon dioxide (C02),3
Even though we believe use of our product does not violate the Anti-tampering law, we are proceeding with EPA approved testing to demonstrate the effectiveness of our conversion system.
1 EPA Bulletin #EPA420-F-00-035
2 EPA Bulleting #EPA420-B-00-003, page 11, paragraph 4
3 http://publications.iowa.gov/archive/00001745/01/e85q&a.html
In other words, it might be legal. If not, the case against it seems fairly grey.
#16
11-01-2006, 12:36 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: E85 with Flextek
Every Car made since 1998 can run on up to 30% Ethanol with zero harmful effects.
I know, I know, owner's manuals say you can use E10, and E10 is what is sold at pumps. This is because every car ever made EVER ( Incl. those 1969's still out there ) can use E10. But the owners manuals DON'T say you CAN'T use E30, and many pumps in mid-west "corn belt" states DO LEGALLY SELL 30% ethanol at the pump.
Why not skip all the converstion hassles and make your own E30? Use the conversion tables below: Just pump some of each into your tank....
1 gal E85 plus 14 gal gas = 5.57% ethanol
2 gal E85 plus 13 gal gas = 11.33% ethanol
3 gal E85 plus 12 gal gas = 17.00% ethanol
4 gal E85 plus 11 gal gas = 22.67% ethanol
5 gal E85 plus 10 gal gas = 28.33% ethanol
1 gal E85 plus 14 gal E10 = 15.00% ethanol
2 gal E85 plus 13 gal E10 = 20.00% ethanol
3 gal E85 plus 12 gal E10 = 25.00% ethanol
4 gal E85 plus 11 gal E10 = 30.00% ethanol
See how your car runs on each... maybe start with a smaller % and work your way up. We'd all love to know your results, so report back!
It is worthy of note that E10 contains "no greater than 10% ethanol".
E10 can have 5%, 6%, 8% ethanol, etc.
E85% shall contain "No greater than 85% ethanol". It can contain less, and usually does. So mixing your own at the above rates would never exceed 30%, AND probably will never reach 30%.
-John
I know, I know, owner's manuals say you can use E10, and E10 is what is sold at pumps. This is because every car ever made EVER ( Incl. those 1969's still out there ) can use E10. But the owners manuals DON'T say you CAN'T use E30, and many pumps in mid-west "corn belt" states DO LEGALLY SELL 30% ethanol at the pump.
Why not skip all the converstion hassles and make your own E30? Use the conversion tables below: Just pump some of each into your tank....
1 gal E85 plus 14 gal gas = 5.57% ethanol
2 gal E85 plus 13 gal gas = 11.33% ethanol
3 gal E85 plus 12 gal gas = 17.00% ethanol
4 gal E85 plus 11 gal gas = 22.67% ethanol
5 gal E85 plus 10 gal gas = 28.33% ethanol
1 gal E85 plus 14 gal E10 = 15.00% ethanol
2 gal E85 plus 13 gal E10 = 20.00% ethanol
3 gal E85 plus 12 gal E10 = 25.00% ethanol
4 gal E85 plus 11 gal E10 = 30.00% ethanol
See how your car runs on each... maybe start with a smaller % and work your way up. We'd all love to know your results, so report back!
It is worthy of note that E10 contains "no greater than 10% ethanol".
E10 can have 5%, 6%, 8% ethanol, etc.
E85% shall contain "No greater than 85% ethanol". It can contain less, and usually does. So mixing your own at the above rates would never exceed 30%, AND probably will never reach 30%.
-John
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