Apparently EricGo is not very well informed about the Ford Escape Hybrid (FEH).
Track Record: (reference Consumer Reports)
Escape has EXCELLENT rating in 2003 & 2004 for every category except body integrity were it scored "very good". The 2005 FEH received very good review by Consumer Reports and others, so the FEH track record appears that it will continue the Escape's excellent track record.
Depreciation: (reference Kelley Blue Book & Edmunds)
A used 2005 FEH is worth MORE than it's original new purchase price. KBB now lists 2005 FEH and the retail value is ~$2000 more than purchase price. Edmunds listings of actual used FEHs are even higher than the KBB estimates.

The only other vehicle I am aware of with similar negative depreciation is the Prius. Let the facts speak for themself, the FEH is not only a reasonable financial choice for the "right people", who have need of larger family vehicles, it is a smart and environmentally conscious choice. With new federal tax credits of ~$2K for FEH (different for FWD & AWD) and gas prices over $3/gal, the payback for hybrid premium cost is only a couple years (not 5-10 years as EricGo suggests) and after that you will be saving money.

Then again, if you are not the "right people" with need of a mid-size car, then maybe you should buy a motorcycle instead of a smaller hybrid car like Prius.

Cheers,
-Dan

 

Relax your sphincter, Gillman. I was not attacking your choice, but pointing out potential downsides that the OP may wish to consider.

The 'right' person in this context was meant to define people that hold on to their cars for many years in order to minimize the financial impact. Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the FEH built out of the regular Escape ? I looked up the CR reliability data for the regular Escape going back five or six years, and it is bad, so you may get lucky and in a couple of years find that Ford put out a new reliable model, but the odds are against you. A recent good two years does not erase a poor history in terms of reliability prognostication.

Negative Depreciation now, *especially* now, does not tell us much what will we true in five years, let alone ten.

So you say the 10,000$ markup is worth it ? Well, take off $2K for the Federal credit; now we are $8K down. 100,000 miles at 20 mpg is 5000 gallons, compared to 3333 used by a 30 mpg FEH, thereby saving 1666 gallons. Gasoline will have to average $4.80 in order to break even at 100,000 miles.

Addendum: To help you out a bit, I have ignored the $1250 or so in interest costs of sinking $10,000 upfront into the vehicle. If I calculate with it, gasoline will have to average $5.50 over 100,000 to reach the break-even point.

I did not buy our Prius to save money .. although I recognized it as a hedge against spiraling gas prices. For me it was a political statement, a vote with my wallet to support what was then an emerging technology, and delight over really cool technology. Support and buy hybrid, by all means. Just be rational about it, to decrease the chance of disillusion later.

-----
If I had a penny for every time someone confused 'I need' with 'I want' -- I could probably jump start the hydrogen economy

 

To EricGo: My numbers were a way of helping someone realize that overall the higher cost of a FEH (no deals) vs a regular Escape (which has dealer incentives) wasn't going to be as high as he might have thought. Yes, 10K for a price difference is a high amount, but if Doozer takes too long in deciding, that will be a moot point.

Doozer said he was ready to get the Escape, but he and his wife needed some convincing on the hybrid. As the wife who had to convince her husband to go with FEH we now have I felt if they could see some actual numbers it would make the over all cost more appealing. Sure there's the possibility of finance charges, but maybe they can get 0% and not face the difference you mention. And who's to say if they'll keep their vehicle for 5 years or more - I only average 3, but still felt the investment was worth the extra cost (almost $5K between models I considered).

Your suggestion of "don't buy an SUV at all" was not the response they were looking for - Doozer stated up front they've settled on the Escape, just needed help on which one.

J of C&J


To Doozer: please forgive our internal rants on this subject. As you can see, we all feel very strongly about our particular vehicles and hope you will be able to make a decision both you and the wife are happy with, be it hybrid or not.

I recently had a long talk with my brother in law who wanted to get a hybrid. We discussed why he was looking at a FEH vs all other models - only reason was that we had the FEH. Long story short, he did look into all other hybrids and fuel efficient vehicles (diesels, smaller pax cars, etc) and ended up with a Prius. Crunch your own numbers. Only you know how long you hope to keep the vehicle and how far you drive yearly. Then get to the store and buy what you want before the deals are over.

 

EricGo - your contention that you are not attacking the FEH owner's choice but just pointing out potential downsides for consideration is insincere. Actually, your posts of this type in the FEH section of GreenHybrid are unwarranted and disingenuous.

You and your ilk like Lakedud appear to be small hybrid elitists that are opposed to mid-sized hybrids, judging by your past posts such as:
EricGo: "Put bluntly: A vehicle used for personal transportation that gets less than 40 mpg today is part of the problem."
Lakedude: "I'm fed up with the low mileage hybrids. In fact I feel like this site has been taken over by cars that get crappy mileage. It was ok when there was just one SUV (FEH) and one fast car (HAH) and the rest were high mileage hybrids. Now we are overrun. Fully half the hybrids listed get crappy mileage and it is looking worse on the horizon with even more low mileage cars and SUVs on the way."

People come to this site asking information about hybrids because they want to get better fuel economy and make a difference for improving the environment. Maybe I have the wrong idea, but isn't the intent of this web site to promote hybrids? Makes me question Jason's choice of promoting lakedude as a Greenhybrid moderator while dropping sdctcher who has been one of the most helpful posters.

Granted, you certainly have a right to your view, but posting misinformation to steer potential FEH buyers away is just wrong.
EricGo: "A recent good two years does not erase a poor history in terms of reliability prognostication."
This statement is misleading and shows lack of understanding. When new vehicles are released there often are unforeseen design and/or manufacturing problems that may result in some low ratings, but as these problems are resolved the track record improves, as does projected reliability. So for predicting future vehicle reliability it is more appropriate to look at the most recent history, not the initial release ratings. See below Consumer Report's recent excellent ratings for Ford Escape. The FEH is built on the Escape platform and hybrid redesign has now been tested for over a year with very few problems using similar technology to Prius that also has proven reliability (although FEH has not experienced electrical glitch that has stalled a few Prius on the highway).
EricGo: "Negative Depreciation now, *especially* now, does not tell us much what will we true in five years, let alone ten."
While this statement has some merit to it, one may analyze the situation and fairly accurately predict the future trend. For example, both the FEH & Prius have high resale value now mainly due to high demand and low supply. Ford indicates it will not be increasing production significantly, such that low supply/demand ratio should maintain the FEH value. However, Toyota will be increasing new Prius sales in America exponentially such that when supply catches up to demand, a used Prius will probably lose its current negative depreciation rating soon.

As to your analysis of the $10K premium on FEH, it was a waste of time and misleading. Apparently you have not read, or chose to ignore, postings by actual FEH owners who report that the FEH MSRP is NOT $10K more than comparable Escape V6 and they relay helpful information that Ford dealerships have been negotiated to sell close to invoice, recommending the initial poster shop around (promoting) ... as opposed to your recommendations of don't buy the Ford or buy foreign (like your car). Read the original post again; Doozer and his wife have decided on an Escape and want information to help decide if the hybrid is worth it.

I've read your confused reality ranting and "need"/"want" prattle before; came close to flaming back at your provoking taunts but I won't lower myself to your level of **** references. You mega-posters that are against the FEH are not going to intimidate us from continued postings on this site. If you enjoy a good debate, then try to rise above the dirty politics and consider this site's purpose.

 

I like your idea. I am going to go back and add it to my spreadsheet with a couple customizations. Since my lifetime average mileage on my former '04 Escape V6 was right around 17.5, I think I will just subtract that from the individual tank mileage, backfigure how much gas that would have been in the '04 and then calculate the theoretical cost for that tank. Might be a little cumbersome but will get to the number I have been looking for - what everyone has been asking me lately - "how much do you save with the Hybrid?". As if that is what it is all about...

On edit - rewrote my spreadsheet and it now tracks gas saving based on the actual price of gas. About $600 saved versus what I would have spent had I still been driving the '04, V6 Escape. Will I ever break even at that rate? Who knows? Who cares?

Now, I need a beer. Or is it that I want a beer? Either way, I am GOING to have a beer. Let's all play nice - we are all here for the same reason (I hope).....

 

I expect that if gas prices do not go up I will save $1300-$1400 the first year of ownership. I did not actually compare the price of a non-hybrid with a similar configuration, but I though the Escape Hybrid Premium was about $3000. That being the case I should break even in two years without taking in account the tax credit. That being said my next concern is when will I have to replace the battery?

Looking at if from another direction, I am saving a little over $100/month!

 

I am hoping I never have to change the batteries. If they do go bad, then for once living in the People's Republic of Massachusetts comes in handy. All Hybrid components for cars sold in MA are covered for 150,000 miles, not the 80,000 that is the standard. If the car lasts that long it probably won't be worth putting batteries in....

 

Looks like original poster, Doozer, only posted once and is gone, but responding to the rest of his question may help out others researching the FEH. GH posters have responded to price differences previously, so I will now address several other significant differences.

* Fuel Economy: This is perhaps the biggest issue for potential new hybrid buyers and maybe the most confusing. First off, don't base your comparisons on the EPA Fuel Economy Rating because they are inaccurate (on as much as 90% of vehicles tested). See current article on this by Consumer Reports: "Fuel Economy - Why You're Not Getting the MPG You Expect" at http://cdn.consumerreports.org/static/0510fue0.html
For frequently asked questions about fuel economy see www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml

Some new FEH owners have complained that they don't get the EPA rating, especially for city driving. This is because the EPA tests do not reflect real world driving. Generalizations (for all cars but more so for hybrids): If most of your driving is short trips, then your MPG will be lower than EPA. If you drive longer trips and at speeds averaging between 40-60MPH, then your MPG will be higher than EPA. Also, extreme temperatures, hot or cold, lowers hybrid vehicle fuel economy.

GreenHybrid.com and Yahoo FEH Group both have real mileage databases that show FEH owners are getting slightly lower than EPA rating on average. This site has an article: “Achieving High Fuel Efficiency” and the Yahoo FEH site has a document in files section specifically for coaching new FEH owners to get better fuel economy. Another thing to note is that the FEH gets better fuel economy, by several MPGs, after break-in period at about 3000-5000 miles.

* Towing: The FEH has lower towing ability than standard Escape. FEH is rated to tow ~1000lbs, but dependent on gross combined weight rating. This has been sufficient for me to haul my sailboat trailer and also attaching a hitch mounted bike rack with 4 bikes.

Others that intend to haul heavier trailers should be aware of this limitation. While on the subject – Hey GaryG, why don’t you trade in your gas boat “toys” for wind and/or paddle powered watercraft, that way you may still get out and enjoy recreating on the water without worrying about gas prices. {Reference Escape the Old SUV post} … and Nitramjr, weren’t you the one to post “let’s all play nice”…

 

Got me there. I thought I was playing nice at first, trying to tell GaryG to look on the bright side concerning the situation that we are all in. In my second response I was only giving some back up to my initial comments. I didn't care for his questioning my motives (which are always sincere - no agenda here).

Glad someone is paying attention....

 

Wow. Just wow. Dan, I think you hit the nail with the hammer though, it is starting to get annoying that the hybrid community here is starting to divide into the small supercar and superSUV, which is losing the goal of the site; to get people to look at hybrids seriously. All of them, without forcing views on anyone and just serving as an educational tool. Telling people who have small commutes during the week to use a bike isn't going to help when they ask for help/info on a hybrid.

Anywho, back to topic, as I said when I purchased mine, I was going for an Escape, and ended up with the Hybrid, but being A plan back in May meant that the FEH wasn't that much more expensive. (Using the build your Ford feature, my planned Escape was $24,706, compared to the $28,402 for my Hybrid) Now, I'm wondering if most people are having a harder decision because of the Ford Family Plan making everyone eligible for a discount on the Escape, yet excluding the FEH, which is where I believe the original poster was coming from with a 10K difference. 4K or so base price difference, 6K or so family plan difference, which would, admittedly make the FEH a much harder justification, and understandably so, and even harder to swallow if they don't plan on owning it for five years or more.

Sure, gas prices are in our favor, especially nowadays, but there's a lot of factors that need to be considered.