FAS and New power steering info
 

Have you ever been at home and had the power flicker? Have you seen the lights dim or flicker, and come right back on? You would for sure take notice of this event. Sometimes, this will turn off your TV or reboot your computer if you had it on at the time. Sometimes though, if the flicker is quick enough, just for half a second or less, you'll still notice the lights, but your TV will stay on, and your computer will continue to run unaffected. This is because there is a slight buffer time, or capacitance in most modern electronics.

It has been posted by some, that you can perform a FAS ( forced auto stop ) in the Ford Escape Hybrid, and continue on your way safely, with power steering. It has been posted by some, that you loose power steering with a key off maneuver while in motion. Which is it?

Turns out, the power steering has a bit of buffer time. The computer, or the part of the computer that controls the power steering has a bit of latency. If, and only IF you turn the key off and then back on to run in 2 seconds or less, will the power steering stay "on". If you take your time, or fumble the keys, or get distracted ( actually paying attention to your driving, perhaps? ) and take 3 seconds or more to cycle the key back to run, your power steering will NOT work after a FAS! And you can't get it back on until you start the engine.

I find it very interesting that the computer, or the part of the computer that runs the ICE does not share this same latency. Thus a very quick turn of the key off then back to run will shut down the engine, but not the power steering. This is similar to how a very quick power flicker will not shut down your home computer. Sometimes.

So can you drive after a FAS with power steering? Yes.
Can you rely on it to always work? NO!
Can you have power steering without starting the engine at least once, such as pushing it out of a garage? NO! The engine must have been started once to "activate" the power steering.
Hope this clears up some mis-understanding on this matter.

As far as I can tell, power brakes work all the time, even when pushing the car out of the garage, as just opening the door pressurizes the brake fluid. I used to have a manual garage door, since my power door was broken. I would push the FEH out of my garage and a few feet down my sloped driveway, before getting out and manually closing the garage door. I did this to save gas. I did this without ever starting the car, and power brakes always worked.

Hope you all find this helpful.
-John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

That's good to know. Are you still able to steer without power? I would imagine if it's a regular mechanical power steering system it's just more difficult to turn the wheel, but if it's one of those new electronic steering deals it's probably not possible at all.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I'm pretty sure even in the electric ones you can still steer with the system dead... the electric just performs an assist as it does in a hydraulic system. The turning is still rack and pinion or whatever.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Lawyers wont let them do a steer by wire. Remember the Audi 5000and 60 minutes,( unintended accelleration) and it was even a real problem. A test for this is can you steer the car with the key off afterf it has sat for a while.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

You can still steer mechanically, by muscle alone, if the car is not "started" or if the power steering ever malfunctions. Same with the power brakes. I'm sure there is some mandate to always have a minimum amount of control in case of electrical failure.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

"Posted by Some"? I'm the only one that posted this information and have been doing Key-Off FAS for 5 months now. The only time I've had the feel of no power steering is when I slowly returned the key back to the run position at a very slow speed. In addition, I posted that if your moving, the electric power steering is designed to reduce the amount of assist so you can get a better feel of the road for vehicle control (SAFETY REASONS!). This has always been argued by me that there is no safely issue with loss of power steering.

If anyone is dumb enough to FUMBLE and remove the key, they have bigger problems than no power steering. What about a locked steering wheel?

The fact is, I've never notice weather or not the power assisted steering is on or off over 20 mph. A FAS normally never last over 12 seconds unless you plan to come to a long stop. Most FAS are between 8-10 seconds.I turn the key back to the run position right away to keep the SG and navi mpg counts straight as possible. I think the electric power steering has alway remained on in the past 5 months, except for a few test I ran with the key off longer at a slow speed.

This subject is turning out the same as when I introduced neutral coasting. All kinds of scare post of how it would damage the eCVT or how it didn't help over coasting in "D" were posted. This time next year FAS will be the talk of this and every FEH/MMH board. Guess what, I have 5 months of experience and a jump on everyone using FAS in the FEH. Don't say I didn't try to let everyone know about it here 4 months ago.

As you learn when to use FAS, your mileage will get much better. What I've learned is to drive much faster while maintaining over 45mpg tanks.

Good Luck

GaryG

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

For this reason alone (if no other reason), I have always thought this is a totally ridiculous idea.

~John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Gary,

I haven't looked at the gal/hour fuel consumption of an idling FEH, but in my previous car it was about a half gallon per hour. If I divide that out to determine how much fuel you save in a 10 second FAS, it's .00138 gallons. Granted, at highway speeds the FEH isn't idling, so the fuel savings is surely more. But even if it's four times more it's still only .005 gallons per FAS. If you FAS twenty times per tank it's .1 gallons. For my recent average MPG that would give me a boost of about .2 MPG overall.

So when you say that FAS will make your MPG much better, you would probably need to FAS more often or for longer durations than what I've figured, right?

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I've found that FAS is really not helpful 99% of the time.
The only time I really do it is when I'm waiting in line for a bank teller on a cold day. In these cases, you should all do it, since you are not moving.

Without FAS at all, I can routinely get 55 MPG around town.
I'm very happy with this.

There have been a few times when I was tempted to do FAS at highway speeds when I am going down a long mountain grade. But then I learned the the engine MUST spin above 40 MPH, even in 'neutral'. Then, in a stroke of genius, I'll admit fueled by GaryG's question about fuel cut ability, I experimented on downgrades at highway speeds, and learned how to get the engine to go 'fuel cut' downhill, at any speed, in D or L 'gear'. I found out how to do this on my own, but Gary's question got me looking into it. So I can honestly thank him for pointing me in that direction.

So for me, at speeds under 40 MPH, I don't need FAS to get 55 MPG.
Over the highway, I could use FAS to my advantage, but will never do it since I feel the risk out-weighs the potential gain. Now, with fuel cut mode, I don't need FAS at highway speeds anyway.

To get the engine to cut all fuel ( and still spin ) at speeds over 40, shift to L to get the engine to "rev up". Once the engine revs above normal, all fuel is cut, and the MG1 is spinning the engine with power from the wheels via MG2. You can then shift back to drive, and the RPM will decrease, and the regen will decrease, and your engine will still burn zero fuel while coasting downhill. Even at 75 MPH.

Enjoy! Hope that helps all the owners out there!
-John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Relax John, you cannot remove the key in any gear but "PARK". I was just waiting for someone to catch on to what GPSman pointed out about fumbling the key.

Brady, I just checked the time while FAS and it's much longer in the FEH. I took the ten seconds from posters on CleanMPG, but the FEH can coast much longer because of the eCVT disengagement from the wheels. It is true that FAS is something you get better and better at, but this is where people like Wayne Gerdes can push 180mpg out of an Honda Insight and over 120mpg out of a Prius. Now that I know how to FAS the FEH, my mileage will always be better. All these techniques I use have to be used at the right time and situations. I'm getting better everyday at FAS and I assure you it gives me a big advantage over someone not using FAS. Of course I use EV more, but a combination of both is better to have knowledge in.

GaryG

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I prefer N to keep the ICE off in those situations, but usually I only come to a single complete stop, so it's better that way, but I can certainly understand FASing then as well.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I said on a cold day. When the engine is running just for the sake of maintaining normal operating temperature.
:angel:-John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I have a 2006 FEH and tried this FAS stuff and I must be missing something. If I turn off the engine with the ignition switch (key) and I can't start the car back up without going to "D".

I have other vehicles that will allow me to start the car in "N" but this thing won't. I throw it in Neutral and turn the key every combination of ways to get it to start and all it get is ACC mode and all the dash icons are lit up. What gives? How do you FAS on the 2006. Step by step and very slowly apparently because I have no idea why I don't understand what I've read to this point.

I have the nav package and all the bells and whistles not that I think it matters but just incase that's messing it up.

Thanks for your patience.:confused:

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

From what I've read you can only start the car in neutral if you're going over 6mph. If you've slowed to below that point you need to go back to park to start it.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I have recently started with Neutral on grades while the ICE is running. I did some searching elsewhere on the internet, and it appears that the general consensus is that shifting an automatic while in gear will harm your transmission. Until gas hits the $20 per gallon range I'm assuming a transmission costs more than you'd be saving in gas.
I'd appreciate hearing from anybody who's used the N-ICE technique for a while with their input on whether this will destroy a tranny. I reset my average mileage calculator the other day, then went down a hill--I got to 40 MPG while in NICE.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

You can go between neutral and drive without worrying about harming the transmission. That's why they make it so that you don't have to push the button to switch between the two. Now, the Forced Auto-Stop over 40mph is up for debate. Some have pointed out that you are at risk of over-spinning the generator if the engine is off.

I switch to neutral all the time when I'm coasting (or gliding), but seldom use the key to turn off the engine.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I did that for almost 40,000 miles in the 05 FEH I used to own with no problems.

~John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Everything about the transmission in this vehicle is controlled by computer. The shifter might as well be a mouse. The computer won't let you do anything BAD to the transmission.....there are a number of people here that have even shifted into reverse while driving at highway speeds. The computer simply ignores the "request".

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

You mean I could do a "Rockford" in this baby??? Woo-hoo!
I've noticed that when I slip into and out of neutral I don't get a "hurky-jerky" motion (that's a technical term), whereas some of the people who were trying this felt a change in motion. Maybe I'm just an excellent driver who is one with her vehicle. Yeah, that's the ticket. :)

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

You should not feel any motion or hear any sounds when going in and out of neutral. Neutral ( with the key and computer "on" ) does not move any gears.
Neutral only opens the electrical connections between the motors, allowing them to "freewheel" by momentum alone.

You may feel the regen "let off" when you go to neutral, which may feel like the car is speeding up... when really, it is just quitting slowing down!
:shade:-John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Okay, hopefully this will put things to rest.

I have 100% proof that both the traction motor and generator motor continue to spin at the same speed as wheel speed when in Neutral.
I now have a CAN Bus scanner that will show Motor RPM.
It's really just using the full potential of the ScanGauge.
It's not user friendly, so I'll just give you the short version.

Traction Motor Speed = 128 RPM per MPH
Generator Speed = -156 RPM per MPH ( EV mode )

Gear ratio between the two: 1:1.218750

Measurements done in EV mode, so there is no ICE speed.
Done when coasting in Neutral, down a 1%-2% slope.

1 MPH TM 128 RPM GM 156 RPM ( reverse direction )
5 MPH TM 640 RPM GM 780 RPM
10 MPH TM 1280 RPM GM 1560 RPM
15 MPH TM 1920 RPM GM 2340 RPM
30 MPH TM 3840 RPM GM 4680 RPM
39 MPH TM 4992 RPM GM 6084 RPM

45 MPH TM 5750 RPM GM ~2400 RPM ICE ON
43 MPH TM 5504 RPM GM 6708 RPM measured during a FAS in Neutral

Yes folks, it is true what I have been saying for 2 years now.
There is not a physical disconnect when you shift to neutral.
In Drive and in Neutral, my RPM numbers are always the same.
Both motors always have a RPM relative to wheel speed.
Coasting in Neutral, both motors always rotate based on wheel speed.
Even after a FAS, both motors rotate based on wheel speed!

Anytime the CAN bus is on, the electronics have the wheels attached to the eCVT. When the key is totally off, the CAN bus is off, and I cannot measure RPM's.
But I am 100% positive the motors spin when you are coasting down a hill in Neutral, even if the car is not "started" after a Forced Auto Stop ( no green car icon ).

Before today, any posts about a neutral disconnect were THEORIES.
THIS IS FACT.
Having opposing theories is good.
It caused me to go to great lengths to prove mine was correct.

However, any future claims that neutral disconnects anything other than electrical power will be considered denial of the truth!!

If anyone lives in the North Denver area and would like to see this in person, I will be happy to show this to you in either your car or mine.
-John


P.S. If you want the long version, send me a PM!

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Now John, doesn't the WS manual say this is 3 second second delay that the Power steering will shuts off? What is this flicker stuff? Folks, you can buy the WS manuals and read this stuff. There is no flicker stuff stated in the FEH manual.

GaryG

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but if that's true why will an FEH coast farther in nuetral than it will in drive??

~John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

"Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but if that's true why will an FEH coast farther in nuetral than it will in drive??"

Actually, the whole point is it does not.

Normally, when you take your foot totally off the gas pedal, there is a slight amount of Regenerative braking intentionally programmed to make the car feel like a traditional car that will have engine braking effect.

Truth be told, take away the intentional regen, and you DO coast exactly the same distance in Drive as "pretend neutral".

Neutral "pretend gear" selection only cancels all electrical power in or out of the motors.

You can also cancel out all regen by pressing the gas pedal 1mm or 2mm in drive. This will not add power to the wheels, but it will cancel all regen.
Try it and report back.
If you have the Nav screen, try to get zero arrows on the energy screen.
If you don't, then it may just take extra practice.

There is no mechanical difference as far as the transmission is concerned, however, most people ( myself incl ) think using your hand to move the shifter to cancel regen is easier than using your foot and trying to get exactly 2mm.

However the foot trick is handy, like when you have one hand on the wheel, and the other hand on an ice cream cone... you can still cancel regen and get a "neutral" coast.
:angel:-John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Yea, you're right I agree with that, but it is so much eaasier to just pop it into neutral than to give it that "perfect light touch" on the gas pedal to negate that slight regen..........

~John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Actually, electrical power is not cancelled in N, but just enough electrical power is applied to both the TM and GM to eliminate motor losses and emulate neutral. This is what HSD driver have to do with their foot.

Your data have not proven that there is no mechanical disconnect in the FEH. It shows, however, that if it is there, it is not commanded during any normal driving conditions, and not by merely putting the gear selector in neutral. However, since failure of a physical disconnect would be catastrophic, and there is no mention of a DTC related to its failure that I can find, that would sure seem to indicate that it is not there.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Not only are you right John, during my steady state speed tests there were no arrows, yet there was regen. In the one mile test, I set the cruise control three of the six times I conducted the test in drive. By accident, I did a few test in "L" and got something like 5mpg less because of the unnoticed regen that was going on. If regen was not showing on the energy screen in "L", than you can assume the same thing was happening in "D". When I was exceeding 50mph, regen was reduced because of wind resistance that caused more positive acceleration. The arrows are not accurate enough to go by IMHO.

GaryG

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

DesertDog, let me re-phrase then:

"No disconnect happens when you shift to "neutral" when in motion."

A disconnect does not happen when you shift to "neutral" even with the key off, when in motion.

Maybe a required condition is you need to be at a dead stop for it to occur?

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I guess I wasn't clear, either. There may in fact be NO physical disconnect actually implemented in the FEH, but the neutral towing makes me think there was. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so I guess one of us will have to dis-assemble an FEH and take some pictures..................

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Okay, I'll bring the camera. Where's your house?
;)-J

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Someone ( Hobbit) suggested that I jack one wheel off the ground, place the car into "Neutral" and see how it "felt" moving it with your hand. Brilliant idea!

Not only could I feel TONS of mechanical resistance in "Neutral" but with the engine off, I could also hear lots of mechanical noise as moving parts were meshing together. Key was on, engine was off.

I found something even MORE interesting!

With one wheel jacked off the ground, and ICE running, in "Neutral" the wheel will spin on its own in the forward direction. Not much, but there is a tiny amount of forward torque on the wheels in Neutral. There was also a ton of resistance to me spinning the wheel backwards in Neutral, when the ICE was running, but could move it forward with one finger. Once I got the tire moving forward, it would continue to move forward on its own. The tires receive a tiny amount of positive torque in "Neutral".

I have video ( .mov ) of the tire spinning forward, on its own, with the car in Neutral. Can I upload a 10MB movie file to this site?

MORE POSITIVE PROOF THERE IS NO MECHANICAL DISCONNECT IN "Neutral".

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Not questioning your results. But just wondering... whether or not there is a mechanical disconnect.... isn't there still a differential? What happens when you lift one corner of a vehicle with a differential and try to spin that wheel with the other one down? I frankly have no idea the answer to that....

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Yes... I figure I could/would hear gears moving pre-disconnect if there was one... however, there's no getting around the fact that there was positive torque ( not much, so slight you could stop it with your hand ) that would spin the tire off the ground... in "Neutral" when the ICE was spinning.

With key on, engine off, the wheel would not spin on it's own.

The fact that it moves at all is what is significant. If there was a physical break... a mechanical disconnect... the wheels would not move at all, right?

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

John, look at what you just said and the question you ask. In neutral with the ICE running is called secondary idle according to what I read the manual. This is because the generator brake nor the generator is controlling the idle, and the engine is on its own. If you had no disconnect, the wheels would spin at a given gear driven speed. The ICE is turning at around 1,100 RPM's, but the vehicle is not moving in neutral. If anyone's vehicle here is moving in neutral, that would be significant and cause to figure out why things aren't disconnecting. You can't have something connected to a moving object that turns the wheels fast one minute and not the next without disconnecting it.

GaryG

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

The engine, at idle, IS spinning the generator. ( in Neutral )
But the generator is not making any electricity, because there is no load on it.
The ScanGauge says so.

Most of the engine speed is going to the generator.
A tiny bit, less than 1% is going to the wheels.
Maybe you like coasting in Neutral so much because you are getting a 1% boost!

If you don't trust what the SG is saying then you should throw yours out, or ask for your money back. If it's wrong about RPM, it's probably wrong about your MPG too, and you are really getting ~35 MPG!

This is not hard to understand.
Only you are hard to understand!
;)

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I thought you posted the RPM of the generator while the ICE was running in neutral with the vehicle stop, but I don't see it now. If the generator is spinning taking over 99% of ICE idle, what is the generator RPM? I thought I read you stated -3120 RPM, is that correct?

The reason I ask is the patent states that inertia could cause damage. If I throw the shifter in drive, what do you think the RPM of the engine and generator would do to the inertia of wheels not moving? If there was a clutch disconnect, a smooth amount of torque could be applied to prevent the shock of inertia.

GaryG

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

The generator IS spinning close to that when the engine is at ~1000 RPM, but moves in the positive direction when wheel speed ( TM Speed ) is zero.
It moves in the negative direction when wheels are moving and engine speed is zero ( EV ).

If you shove it into drive, NOTHING will happen to the traction motor or wheels.
That is the whole point. Everything has always been "connected" from the get go, so there is no clashing of gears.

Remember, this is a 3-way device. As long as 2 members are balanced, the third can stand still and be hard connected... no slippage or clutch required, or desired. Power moves the path of least resistance. To transfer power from the engine to the wheels, you need to add resistance to the generator, or take resistance away from the wheels, so the wheels become the path of least resistance.
If you shoved the ICE into drive and two motors were standing still, it would probably grind the teeth off the gears.
Remember, when you start the car, the ICE and the Generator spin up together in concert, they are in a sense, as good as welded together at this point, since the traction motor is as good as welded in place due to the parking pawl. Remove the parking pawl, and the traction motor can spin up in RPM reducing the RPM of either the ICE, or the Generator, or both.

Neutral only = No load on the generator, so it spins, and the wheels don't, because normally the wheels DO have a load on them, when they are touching the ground. With a wheel off the ground, you now have no load on the generator, and no load on the wheels at the same time, so now power ( torque ) from the engine has 2 possible paths, instead of one. This is why my ICE was spinning the generator (mostly) and my wheels ( slowly ) at the same time in "neutral". And I have a video of this process.

I have to wonder if I let it sit long enough, and wasted more gas, if the wheel speed would gradually increase over time. It might.

I should say that having a wheel up allows the ring gear, or traction motor to spin, but I think everyone assumed that already.

The principle of Ockham's razor comes to mind.

Ockham's razor is a principle attributed to the English logician William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the hypothesis or theory. Do not assume things are there that you cannot observe with your 5 senses. The principle often expressed in Latin is translated to:
"entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity." This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." ( see Wikipedia )

You have no speed "matching" problems if things always stay connected.
You have no chance of grinding gears if things always stay connected.
You have fewer parts to manufacture if things simply stay connected.
You can start the engine in motion, if things stay connected.
( you cannot start the engine at all if things are disconnected )
You eliminate all noise, vibration, and harshness if things stay connected.
You can make a smaller, lighter, more compact transmission.
You have a more durable and reliable product, the simpler it is.
You have very little mechanical drag when power is removed from the motors if the balance and bearings are good. These seem excellent.
It is simpler to just keep all gears in mesh at all times.
The only downside I see to this is towing. And few people do this. And the ones that do, only do it for... 1% or 2% of the life of the vehicle?
I think perhaps the way it was built, over-speed is not a problem when towing... and it appears, from Gary's driving, not a problem when you FAS over 40 MPH.

Ockham's razor cuts the crap, and leaves the nitty gritty.
Why make the eCVT more complicated than it needs to be?
It really looks like Ford found other more elegant ways to make a simpler vehicle than all the patents suggest. You know technology doubles every 18 months. By the time the patent clerk assigned it a number, that patent was obsolete already.

Everything you posted in the past Gary is possible.
It is just not probable, and its chances get smaller the more we look at the car we have sitting in our driveway. Honestly, wouldn't you rather look at your car than a piece of paper?

All of the benefits in MPG for your N coasting comes from regen being shut off. Both motors are spinning the same. Just neither one is doing any work, thus neither one is slowing the car down. I will be the first to admit that shifting to N is the best way to stop all regen.

On a Prius page it was published that the Prius generator is allowed to spin 10,000 RPM with brief periods allowed to exceed this ( such as WOT acceleration ).

Towing the FEH with wheels down and generator connected would spin the generator 11,700 RPM at 75MPH. If Ford's is beefier and "stronger" *built Ford Tough* compared to Toyota's, it is not unreasonable for the FEH to be able to freewheel the generator with no electrical load for sustained periods.
I don't like the sounds of it, but it seems technically feasible. If Toyota's can do it for brief periods ( exceed 10k ) then why can't ours???

The generator spins ~ -6000 RPM when in EV at 39.9 MPH.
I think it was a false assumption for some of us (myself included) to think there was a 6000 RPM limit for the generator. This is almost certainly NOT the case, as now that I know how to meter it, I have seen my generator spin 8600 RPM with the engine on, during "normal" driving conditions. No warning messages, no flashing lights came on the dash.

I think the REAL reason for the 40 MPH EV limit is, much above this, the generator does not have enough torque to spin up the ICE. Thus it won't hurt the motor to go faster, but you might not be able to start the car! I do think the generator brake plays a role in a high speed start, but was not designed, or sized appropriately to be used on a daily basis for multiple use every day, providing there is a mechanical brake ( which I have only seen drawings of, not the actual device).

At this point I can only tell you that the 3 legs of the transmission do not disconnect in "Neutral". I'm still working on the why... But I'm starting to like this Ockham fellow. -John

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I always thought there was a physical disconnect based on what's in the Ford manuals. However, a few things have made me realize how unlikely it is:

1. No LOS for failure of the disconnect. This would obviuosly leave you dead in the water, so why bother with an LOS? Braking strategy would have to change to all friction, for one. There is an LOS for failure of the OWC.
2. No DTC for failure of the disconnect, at least that I could find. There is one for the OWC, a purely mechanical device. I cannot believe that failure of a device that would prevent any locomotion of the vehicle would not have a DTC.
3. A splined shaft engangement would wear out very quickly if used frequently. Even matching speeds wouldn't guarantee perfectly smooth engagement.

Having now posted this opinion in a public forum, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see someone post a picture of a disconnect in the FEH eCVT (Murphy's Law)

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

I wish I had one of the eCVTs to take apart we could settle this real QUICK.
I tend to think at this point gpsman1 is correct. If I have time I will hook up my Snap on Modis and will go to LIVE data and look a the speeds of thing in simi real time.

Re: FAS and New power steering info
 

Permanent magnet motors that I have examined do not turn freely when not powered. When I turn the shaft, I can feel the magnets as they pass the field poles. The resistance is slight, but would create some drag.

. I wonder if "cogging" exists with our Hybrid motors?