For Us New On The Block
#11
11-14-2005, 04:38 PM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Originally Posted by Pravus Prime
I'll answer you here, instead of in the L gear thread.
I'm not sure what you're missing for the L shutoff. After the engine is warm (and will go into EV mode), Driving around forty mph or below, when you see a red light or a stop or whatever ahead, giving yourself plenty of room (since you're going to coast in, but a slowing coast) let off the accelerator. (If you regularly drive in D, then shift [It won't hurt] into L and let off the pedal) Usually by the time you've slowed to 35ish MPH (from 40), your engine is off, viola! This is automatic, so really the only learning involved is when to shift into L or take your foot off the pedal if you're already in L to get to a near stop where you want to, so you can coast in ICE off to any stop from quite the distance away.
Now, in D, you can get the engine to go off (once warmed up) under 40 MPH by using the double tap, or hitting your brakes twice. I found that I can always get the engine off in D; It's not quite a double tap though as two seperate taps, instead, put some pressure on the brakes, let off some, then reapply the pressure. In other words, if the brakes had a meter, from 0-100, with 0 being no brakes, and 100 being all the way down, press down to 20 or so, let off to 5, then go back to 20. Engines off, EV cruising you go. Now, the double tap will probably take practice, to find what combination works for you and your vehicle to get it ICE off.
I'm not sure what you're missing for the L shutoff. After the engine is warm (and will go into EV mode), Driving around forty mph or below, when you see a red light or a stop or whatever ahead, giving yourself plenty of room (since you're going to coast in, but a slowing coast) let off the accelerator. (If you regularly drive in D, then shift [It won't hurt] into L and let off the pedal) Usually by the time you've slowed to 35ish MPH (from 40), your engine is off, viola! This is automatic, so really the only learning involved is when to shift into L or take your foot off the pedal if you're already in L to get to a near stop where you want to, so you can coast in ICE off to any stop from quite the distance away.
Now, in D, you can get the engine to go off (once warmed up) under 40 MPH by using the double tap, or hitting your brakes twice. I found that I can always get the engine off in D; It's not quite a double tap though as two seperate taps, instead, put some pressure on the brakes, let off some, then reapply the pressure. In other words, if the brakes had a meter, from 0-100, with 0 being no brakes, and 100 being all the way down, press down to 20 or so, let off to 5, then go back to 20. Engines off, EV cruising you go. Now, the double tap will probably take practice, to find what combination works for you and your vehicle to get it ICE off.
#12
11-17-2005, 02:10 PM
Re: For Us New On The Block
I ran across this site Autoblog http://www.autoblog.com/search/?q=Fo...brid&submit=Go . They have an article about the FHE and how the powertrain etc work together. It is pretty informative as to how it all fits together. I think some of the stuff alluded to is in the article/manual from Ford that has been referred to in other threads, but this article kind of puts it into language you can comprehend.
It has probably been circulated here many time on this forum (but couldn’t find after a search).
After reading many articles, both online and from everyday experience, this one is pretty much on the mark with the real world - plus giving a pretty in-depth look at how all the technology fits together. There are 4 blogs that cover 5 days and all are pretty good but the one explaining the powertrain is 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid: In the Autoblog Garage Days 3-4.
It has probably been circulated here many time on this forum (but couldn’t find after a search).
After reading many articles, both online and from everyday experience, this one is pretty much on the mark with the real world - plus giving a pretty in-depth look at how all the technology fits together. There are 4 blogs that cover 5 days and all are pretty good but the one explaining the powertrain is 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid: In the Autoblog Garage Days 3-4.
#13
11-25-2005, 10:07 PM
Re: For Us New On The Block
OK – New Question 
When I first started searching out info on hybrids I ran across an article – can’t remember where – that discussed acceleration from a stop - slow vs. quick (not floor it) acceleration in getting better mileage. If I remember correctly it was to run your own test using your two scenarios. Having the ICE at operating temp and then run the test on a stretch of road – say 2 miles or so -where you could be consistent. Each test began after ‘Resetting’ your MPG. On the 1st test, accelerate swiftly to your desired MPH then hold that as closely as possible over the rest of the run and record your MPG over the course. On the 2nd test, accelerate slowly to your desired put that MPG down and then see which one gave the best overall. Has anyone seen or remember this article, or has tried it?
In my case (at least it seems) that every time I have to stop for a light it is at a dip in the road – uphill no matter which way I am going. If the traffic is light I will try and Slowly accelerate but it takes more time to reach my cruise speed say on surface streets – 30 to 40 MPH. But when it is crowded I will push it a little harder – not as hard as the guy behind me would like. Just looking at the ‘Instant’ MPG meter reading it doesn’t seem to vary if I do acceleration slowly or push it a little harder and have the RPMs go up, but I can't really see that much difference in the MPGs. Is it that the reading or the actual usage not that much different - say 10 MPG vs 8 MPG? I know that the higher the RPMs the more fuel burned but will it all even out over the long/short haul? So is there any difference in the two as far as MPG. Plus is just me or in my mind that you seem, or do, get better MPG at or above 40 MPH?
When I first started searching out info on hybrids I ran across an article – can’t remember where – that discussed acceleration from a stop - slow vs. quick (not floor it) acceleration in getting better mileage. If I remember correctly it was to run your own test using your two scenarios. Having the ICE at operating temp and then run the test on a stretch of road – say 2 miles or so -where you could be consistent. Each test began after ‘Resetting’ your MPG. On the 1st test, accelerate swiftly to your desired MPH then hold that as closely as possible over the rest of the run and record your MPG over the course. On the 2nd test, accelerate slowly to your desired put that MPG down and then see which one gave the best overall. Has anyone seen or remember this article, or has tried it?
In my case (at least it seems) that every time I have to stop for a light it is at a dip in the road – uphill no matter which way I am going. If the traffic is light I will try and Slowly accelerate but it takes more time to reach my cruise speed say on surface streets – 30 to 40 MPH. But when it is crowded I will push it a little harder – not as hard as the guy behind me would like. Just looking at the ‘Instant’ MPG meter reading it doesn’t seem to vary if I do acceleration slowly or push it a little harder and have the RPMs go up, but I can't really see that much difference in the MPGs. Is it that the reading or the actual usage not that much different - say 10 MPG vs 8 MPG? I know that the higher the RPMs the more fuel burned but will it all even out over the long/short haul? So is there any difference in the two as far as MPG. Plus is just me or in my mind that you seem, or do, get better MPG at or above 40 MPH?
#14
11-25-2005, 10:19 PM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Both through personal testing, and through talking to engineers, it can be debatable, but generally I've found that harsher acceleration up to speed is better than meandering up. While you get poor MPGs during that acceleration, you spend little time in that zone, and can spend a great deal of time after getting her up to speed costing, with high MPGs afterwards to make up for it, and net you a nice bonus as well.
Now, a major factor in this is road conditions, if you're in an area where you spend only seconds at speed before you have to slow down again for a stop, you're far better off FE wise to take your time up to speed and travel at perhaps a lower top speed as well.
Now, a major factor in this is road conditions, if you're in an area where you spend only seconds at speed before you have to slow down again for a stop, you're far better off FE wise to take your time up to speed and travel at perhaps a lower top speed as well.
#15
11-26-2005, 10:19 AM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Those are often called "jack-rabbit starts" and I've tried out the technique as well. What I noticed is that when you accelerate quickly like that, you get a nice electric boost. That led me to think that the high torque electric boost was possibly negating the extra gas normally burned during that type of acceleration (and/or cuts the time required to get up to speed).
I asked a couple of engineers if my theory was sound, and they were unable to really give me an answer.
That said, I've found I tend to get better overall MPG with slower starts, maximize time/speed in EV and keep RPMs low (2K or less when possible).
One thing they showed us at the seminar was that more gradual acceleration and braking result in better MPG for a few reasons. On the braking end, of course maximizing regen and not losing any to friction brakes is the main goal. But on the acceleration side, it wasn't so much a matter of how much fuel you burn during different types of acceleration, but rather the overall amount of time you spend at higher speeds where theoretically you get worse MPG. They showed a chart that illustrated the concept very clearly. Of course, many other factors are involved, but it did make a lot of sense, and I know that in my driving I've found the slower starts do work better.
I asked a couple of engineers if my theory was sound, and they were unable to really give me an answer.
That said, I've found I tend to get better overall MPG with slower starts, maximize time/speed in EV and keep RPMs low (2K or less when possible).
One thing they showed us at the seminar was that more gradual acceleration and braking result in better MPG for a few reasons. On the braking end, of course maximizing regen and not losing any to friction brakes is the main goal. But on the acceleration side, it wasn't so much a matter of how much fuel you burn during different types of acceleration, but rather the overall amount of time you spend at higher speeds where theoretically you get worse MPG. They showed a chart that illustrated the concept very clearly. Of course, many other factors are involved, but it did make a lot of sense, and I know that in my driving I've found the slower starts do work better.
#16
11-26-2005, 10:43 AM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Hi Guys:
___I have to agree with Randy on this one as that is what I have seen and have been using for years. As he mentioned, the times at lower speeds do reduce aero resistance. As for my real world take on the Escape HEV, if you can bring her up on EV, by all means do so. I understand traffic behind will sometimes dictate a heavier acceleration w/ ICE-On but if no one is behind and you have some SoC, by all means bring her up to 10 - 15 mph before ICE on with a slightly heavier accelerator afterwards then from scratch. EV is way more efficient at very low take off speeds then ICE-On even if the ICE has to charge the pack but it can and should do so at a more efficient RPM and speed above 30 mph, not from an idling 0 mph on up.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___I have to agree with Randy on this one as that is what I have seen and have been using for years. As he mentioned, the times at lower speeds do reduce aero resistance. As for my real world take on the Escape HEV, if you can bring her up on EV, by all means do so. I understand traffic behind will sometimes dictate a heavier acceleration w/ ICE-On but if no one is behind and you have some SoC, by all means bring her up to 10 - 15 mph before ICE on with a slightly heavier accelerator afterwards then from scratch. EV is way more efficient at very low take off speeds then ICE-On even if the ICE has to charge the pack but it can and should do so at a more efficient RPM and speed above 30 mph, not from an idling 0 mph on up.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
#17
11-26-2005, 01:07 PM
Re: For Us New On The Block
My choice for take off first: Go EV as long as you can. Second: At least watch the car behind you and stay EV till you see you are a pain, then hit it with a short boost from both ICE and electric and start fake shifts keeping RPM's down (2,000 if posible) till speed limit needed.
On flat roads remember to set cruise for 30-35mph limits on the way up to 43mph and above. With preset cruise, go EV ASAP or drive till you need to slow. Let off gas and shift to "L", look for tach signal (39-40mph or below) and go to "D", then relax in EV. Cancel cruise if needed for coasting or go "L" for more charge when needed. This is the best way to set cruise in EV without premature ICE starts.
Most of the time your stopped and the ICE is off, you have enough battery to at least get you rolling in EV. If the ICE is running, I take off slow if traffic permits. If I start becoming a pain, I do the short boost and fake shifts.
For on ramps to freeways I use fake shifts to desired speed. Depending on traffic, keep between 55-63mph waiting for a draft under 72mph. Prefer a semi with a flatbed or a semi or box truck with no areodynamic shields. Determine draft quality because I find some can give you worst mpg than the slower speeds without a draft.
Drive EV roads whenever posible under 40mph and give yourself plenty of driving time. These are my Standard Operating Proceedures.
Gary
On flat roads remember to set cruise for 30-35mph limits on the way up to 43mph and above. With preset cruise, go EV ASAP or drive till you need to slow. Let off gas and shift to "L", look for tach signal (39-40mph or below) and go to "D", then relax in EV. Cancel cruise if needed for coasting or go "L" for more charge when needed. This is the best way to set cruise in EV without premature ICE starts.
Most of the time your stopped and the ICE is off, you have enough battery to at least get you rolling in EV. If the ICE is running, I take off slow if traffic permits. If I start becoming a pain, I do the short boost and fake shifts.
For on ramps to freeways I use fake shifts to desired speed. Depending on traffic, keep between 55-63mph waiting for a draft under 72mph. Prefer a semi with a flatbed or a semi or box truck with no areodynamic shields. Determine draft quality because I find some can give you worst mpg than the slower speeds without a draft.
Drive EV roads whenever posible under 40mph and give yourself plenty of driving time. These are my Standard Operating Proceedures.
Gary
#18
11-26-2005, 01:27 PM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Hi Guys –
I agree with ALL of you – I guess I was talking more about what Rich said “I've found that harsher acceleration up to speed is better than meandering up” not flooring it or even pushing so hard that the ICE immediately kicks in but stay on EV for as long as practically possible under a good steady acceleration until the ICE does kick in then using a conservative but a little more aggressive way of getting up to cruise speed quicker in Hybrid mode so you don’t stay in say the 10MPG range for 20 sec but say 7MPG for 10 sec.
Thanks Guys – Hope All had a Great Thanksgiving!!
I agree with ALL of you – I guess I was talking more about what Rich said “I've found that harsher acceleration up to speed is better than meandering up” not flooring it or even pushing so hard that the ICE immediately kicks in but stay on EV for as long as practically possible under a good steady acceleration until the ICE does kick in then using a conservative but a little more aggressive way of getting up to cruise speed quicker in Hybrid mode so you don’t stay in say the 10MPG range for 20 sec but say 7MPG for 10 sec.
Thanks Guys – Hope All had a Great Thanksgiving!!
#19
11-27-2005, 12:49 AM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Originally Posted by VietVet'67
Hi Guys –
I agree with ALL of you – I guess I was talking more about what Rich said “I've found that harsher acceleration up to speed is better than meandering up” not flooring it or even pushing so hard that the ICE immediately kicks in but stay on EV for as long as practically possible under a good steady acceleration until the ICE does kick in then using a conservative but a little more aggressive way of getting up to cruise speed quicker in Hybrid mode so you don’t stay in say the 10MPG range for 20 sec but say 7MPG for 10 sec.
Thanks Guys – Hope All had a Great Thanksgiving!!
I agree with ALL of you – I guess I was talking more about what Rich said “I've found that harsher acceleration up to speed is better than meandering up” not flooring it or even pushing so hard that the ICE immediately kicks in but stay on EV for as long as practically possible under a good steady acceleration until the ICE does kick in then using a conservative but a little more aggressive way of getting up to cruise speed quicker in Hybrid mode so you don’t stay in say the 10MPG range for 20 sec but say 7MPG for 10 sec.
Thanks Guys – Hope All had a Great Thanksgiving!!
Yes, thank you. I wasn't talking about Jack-Rabbit starts at all, and instead a technique that I've shared before that Gary uses and Wayne mentions, though slightly more aggressive. EV until ICE kicks on, then get up to speed after that, rather than a slow and steady acceleration.
#20
11-29-2005, 06:20 AM
Re: For Us New On The Block
Hi All –
Man my Mind and Right Arm (from Shifting – L for regen back to D for coast - - ) are really getting tired trying to use ALL the helpful hints everyone has made in not just this thread but all the others (a lot of GREAT minds out there).
As I think I stated earlier – most of my ‘Long’ 2 mile commute is a killer on the FE but by using just about all the resources gleaned from the FEH Discussion Group (Oil, Tire Pressure, P&G, Coast - - -) I can still get 28MPG in the morning even on a cold start, short stop start (long stop) with little time form Regen and 29 in the evening return (Regen build up better for a longer EV).
I really have to thank GaryG on the 'Fake Shift' and Pravus Prime on ” slightly more aggressive technique” on getting up to a cruise speed after EV – these seemed to be the missing links and has really helped a lot getting started and keeping the FE up on these short jumps. By using a combo of P&G, L gear to regen as quickly as possible and Gary’s Fake Shifts – I think I have about pushed the limit (at least for now) on how much FE I can get on those short hauls that really are killers.
For you who might not have caught GaryG's 'Fake Shifts' (Lot of Threads – Lots of Searching) – here is the basics behind his thinking and technique.
GaryG – Fake Shifts
(FEH Weirdness) “I've been using a trick that really has helped my mpg. No one on the hybrid boards that I know have said it helps them. I call it the "four fake shifts" ´“You step up the speed and step down the RPM's. While making the fake shifts slow, it give you a chance to start a new climb in RPM's at a faster speed till you reach the speed you want at a much lower RPM. Its a matter of letting off the gas as if you were driving a four speed to shift.”
(The Low Gear Advantage) “A trick I use to keep low RPM's is letting off the pedal like shifting a 4 speed during acceleration to a high speed. Letting off the pedal 3 or 4 times helps me control the ECVT from revs over 3,000 RPM's. I try to keep it under that between each slowly fake shift.”
” When accelerating, I use what I call the "Fake Shift", I try to not let the RPM's go much above 2,000, then let off the accelerator to drop RPM's (not slowing down) like you would shifting gears in a manual four speed. Continue untill I get to the top speed with traffic. Each time you fake a shift, you boost the battery (watch the charge needle).
Inclines - No cruise control, use the fake shift to keep RPM's down. Keep your speed up a little more before the incline. It is not the time to speed up when your on a incline, TO MUCH RPM's = TO MUCH GAS. I try to coast or use EV on inclines whenever posible. Stay in "D”.”
Gary - I watch my 'Instant Display', I think somewhere you had mentioned the Monitor. I try to catch a Peak in the FE and then ease back into the gas – but a lot of it is as you said ‘like using a standard shift’ – it has a lot to do with feel - seat of the pants Fake Shifting.
Have started a list or compendium from all across the FEH Forum of all the latest and greatest hints and techniques to getting the best FE (and fun) from the Great 'American' Hybrid. Hope to have it soon. - Thanks Again All
Man my Mind and Right Arm (from Shifting – L for regen back to D for coast - - ) are really getting tired trying to use ALL the helpful hints everyone has made in not just this thread but all the others (a lot of GREAT minds out there).
As I think I stated earlier – most of my ‘Long’ 2 mile commute is a killer on the FE but by using just about all the resources gleaned from the FEH Discussion Group (Oil, Tire Pressure, P&G, Coast - - -) I can still get 28MPG in the morning even on a cold start, short stop start (long stop) with little time form Regen and 29 in the evening return (Regen build up better for a longer EV).
I really have to thank GaryG on the 'Fake Shift' and Pravus Prime on ” slightly more aggressive technique” on getting up to a cruise speed after EV – these seemed to be the missing links and has really helped a lot getting started and keeping the FE up on these short jumps. By using a combo of P&G, L gear to regen as quickly as possible and Gary’s Fake Shifts – I think I have about pushed the limit (at least for now) on how much FE I can get on those short hauls that really are killers.
For you who might not have caught GaryG's 'Fake Shifts' (Lot of Threads – Lots of Searching) – here is the basics behind his thinking and technique.
GaryG – Fake Shifts
(FEH Weirdness) “I've been using a trick that really has helped my mpg. No one on the hybrid boards that I know have said it helps them. I call it the "four fake shifts" ´“You step up the speed and step down the RPM's. While making the fake shifts slow, it give you a chance to start a new climb in RPM's at a faster speed till you reach the speed you want at a much lower RPM. Its a matter of letting off the gas as if you were driving a four speed to shift.”
(The Low Gear Advantage) “A trick I use to keep low RPM's is letting off the pedal like shifting a 4 speed during acceleration to a high speed. Letting off the pedal 3 or 4 times helps me control the ECVT from revs over 3,000 RPM's. I try to keep it under that between each slowly fake shift.”
” When accelerating, I use what I call the "Fake Shift", I try to not let the RPM's go much above 2,000, then let off the accelerator to drop RPM's (not slowing down) like you would shifting gears in a manual four speed. Continue untill I get to the top speed with traffic. Each time you fake a shift, you boost the battery (watch the charge needle).
Inclines - No cruise control, use the fake shift to keep RPM's down. Keep your speed up a little more before the incline. It is not the time to speed up when your on a incline, TO MUCH RPM's = TO MUCH GAS. I try to coast or use EV on inclines whenever posible. Stay in "D”.”
Gary - I watch my 'Instant Display', I think somewhere you had mentioned the Monitor. I try to catch a Peak in the FE and then ease back into the gas – but a lot of it is as you said ‘like using a standard shift’ – it has a lot to do with feel - seat of the pants Fake Shifting.
Have started a list or compendium from all across the FEH Forum of all the latest and greatest hints and techniques to getting the best FE (and fun) from the Great 'American' Hybrid. Hope to have it soon. - Thanks Again All
