EPA Mileage Tests Explained
#1
08-18-2004, 12:31 PM
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,430
Read the USA Today article to understand the EPA MPG test and some of the controversy about why it is so outdated:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-0...con-cover_x.htm
A quote from the article, NOT used by permission:
"Sometimes I think, 'Sucker,' " says an unhappy MaryJo Meer, 37, of Chula Vista, Calif. She bought a Honda Civic gas-electric hybrid May 19 expecting close to the 47 mpg EPA rating. Instead, she's getting 34 mpg, even though most of her driving is on the highway, where Honda's type of hybrid does best.
"They're actually charging us more for a car to save the environment and all that crap, and we're not saving anything at all," she says. "If I'd have known that, I'd have kept my SUV."
Someone ought to try to contact her about this board - I think she needs to be taught some "Hyper-Miler" tricks !!
Very interesting article I thought.......
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-0...con-cover_x.htm
A quote from the article, NOT used by permission:
"Sometimes I think, 'Sucker,' " says an unhappy MaryJo Meer, 37, of Chula Vista, Calif. She bought a Honda Civic gas-electric hybrid May 19 expecting close to the 47 mpg EPA rating. Instead, she's getting 34 mpg, even though most of her driving is on the highway, where Honda's type of hybrid does best.
"They're actually charging us more for a car to save the environment and all that crap, and we're not saving anything at all," she says. "If I'd have known that, I'd have kept my SUV."
Someone ought to try to contact her about this board - I think she needs to be taught some "Hyper-Miler" tricks !!
Very interesting article I thought.......
#2
08-18-2004, 12:46 PM
I know, I see this all the time.
There's a guy here in Cincinnati near me that's quoted frequently; he has his own software company. Well, guess what -- I emailed him a few times asking him if he wanted to discuss his mpgs, or maybe swap cars and see if that makes a difference. He emailed me back with "no, thanks" and "the car is just fine".
I wonder, then, if they just like complaining. He certainly didn't want to remedy the situation.
They also never go into whether this lady got poor mileage out of her prior vehicle, whether or not it hit EPA...you know, all the regular stuff we talk about when it comes to cars and EPA estimates.
What never gets mentioned in these articles, and I'm really surprised, is that the EPA estimates CAN be used for something, even if they are off. They at least can be used as a *relative* factor, saying that "this vehicle is more fuel efficient than that vehicle". That's how I use them. They can be useful in that sense, with the idea that if the person drove them both the same, they'd follow the same trend -- that the one would be more fuel efficient than the other.
That's my 2 cents.
PS Why do they usually quote HCH owners? I've seen Prius II's a lot farther from EPA than HCHs.
PPS They're both great cars, by the way.
There's a guy here in Cincinnati near me that's quoted frequently; he has his own software company. Well, guess what -- I emailed him a few times asking him if he wanted to discuss his mpgs, or maybe swap cars and see if that makes a difference. He emailed me back with "no, thanks" and "the car is just fine".
I wonder, then, if they just like complaining. He certainly didn't want to remedy the situation.
They also never go into whether this lady got poor mileage out of her prior vehicle, whether or not it hit EPA...you know, all the regular stuff we talk about when it comes to cars and EPA estimates.
What never gets mentioned in these articles, and I'm really surprised, is that the EPA estimates CAN be used for something, even if they are off. They at least can be used as a *relative* factor, saying that "this vehicle is more fuel efficient than that vehicle". That's how I use them. They can be useful in that sense, with the idea that if the person drove them both the same, they'd follow the same trend -- that the one would be more fuel efficient than the other.
That's my 2 cents.
PS Why do they usually quote HCH owners? I've seen Prius II's a lot farther from EPA than HCHs.
PPS They're both great cars, by the way.
#3
08-24-2004, 10:00 AM
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,430
UPDATE: There is a "Letter to the Editor" printed in the 8-24-2004 USA Today newspaper from Margo Oge, director of the Office of Transportation Air Quality, U.S. E.P.A. in Washington.
Apparently, they are getting the message that their mpg rating system is indeed flawed and outdated. Here is a clip of her letter, NOT used by permission:
"While estimates have been a good tool for comparing fuel economy of different vehicles, the test procedures...have been in place since the 1970s and have been adjusted only once, 20 years ago. Many things have changed since then: Speed limits are higher, congestion has increased, and more vehicles are equipped with power hungry accessories such as A/C. Our initial analysis indicates that if these and other factors were taken into account, they would change the fuel economy values on stickers. The U.S. EPA has a joint responsibility with the auto industry to provide credible info to consumers about the fuel economy they can expect from their vehicles. The EPA has received more than 33,000 comments from a wide range of stakeholders indicating broad public support to update its methods by which the estimates are calculated. We have begun a collaborative process to provide more credible fuel economy information to consumers, and look forward to working with all of the stakeholders in this effort. We plan to propose appropriate changes in the next year."
You know the automakers are going to fight this TOOTH and NAIL !! I hope something substantial manages to get done though.
As we all know, the answer to the question, "Can you get EPA numbers by just driving like a normal person" is NO right now. Maybe someday it can be yes.
LAterz...............
Apparently, they are getting the message that their mpg rating system is indeed flawed and outdated. Here is a clip of her letter, NOT used by permission:
"While estimates have been a good tool for comparing fuel economy of different vehicles, the test procedures...have been in place since the 1970s and have been adjusted only once, 20 years ago. Many things have changed since then: Speed limits are higher, congestion has increased, and more vehicles are equipped with power hungry accessories such as A/C. Our initial analysis indicates that if these and other factors were taken into account, they would change the fuel economy values on stickers. The U.S. EPA has a joint responsibility with the auto industry to provide credible info to consumers about the fuel economy they can expect from their vehicles. The EPA has received more than 33,000 comments from a wide range of stakeholders indicating broad public support to update its methods by which the estimates are calculated. We have begun a collaborative process to provide more credible fuel economy information to consumers, and look forward to working with all of the stakeholders in this effort. We plan to propose appropriate changes in the next year."
You know the automakers are going to fight this TOOTH and NAIL !! I hope something substantial manages to get done though.
As we all know, the answer to the question, "Can you get EPA numbers by just driving like a normal person" is NO right now. Maybe someday it can be yes.
LAterz...............
#4
08-24-2004, 10:54 AM
Hi Lars-ss:
___This is not entirely factual from what I have been reading lately. I have done quite a bit of research into the 03-05 Accord w/ Auto over the last month or two and many are exceeding EPA estimates (24 City/34 Highway) out on the highway driving normally according to the Edmunds Honda Accord forums. Consumer Reports has its own simulated City and Highway cycle that is much closer to an actual drive given it is an actual drive on a test track of some kind with simulated lights and stop signs, differing timed stops, and much higher highway speeds w/ real wind resistance. The Accord received 38 mpg on their highway run. They also have a real 150 mile run in the mix. Many automobiles in their tests exceed the EPA highway estimates but usually fall far behind in the city estimates.
___The following link should help give credence to this although the Prius listed is the Prius I, not the II.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/art...tegory.html%20/
___IIRC, the Prius II had a 35 mpg city, 50 + on the highway run (I am not sure what the exact highway number was?) and 44 mpg overall.
___Another piece or two of anecdotal evidence from Consumer Reports about Hybrids in particular …
___As seen at the following: Fuel-efficiency claims for hybrid cars fall far short
___As seen at the following: Hybrid mileage comes up short
___In regards to the Hybrid’s, I think the Prius II is the largest outlier given it is in its EV mode so much of the EPA’s city cycle and so many are expecting to see that 60 mpg mark on the FCD or calculated. I haven’t read of a single person that has received 60 mpg in an all city environment yet but I am sure there are many that do consistently tank over tank. Chisight and I took a brand new, un-warmed up, Prius II for a test drive in 32 degree temps about 6 to 7 months ago. I had a 56 mpg reading after something like 4 miles and Chisight had 57 mpg showing on the FCD (after reset) after it was warmed up on the way back but we were not driving “normally” either. This was in a pure all-city environment. If the Prius II was setup properly (0W-20), high pressure tires, warmer temps, hypermiling techniques, I am sure she could see 60 + on a continuing basis but maybe not while driving normally is all. With that, to exceed city estimates in the Insight (60 mpg), it takes some non-normal measures the few times I have taken her out for local drives or when I am driving from parked and finally get to the Interstate after ~ 2.5 miles either way. Running a maximum hypermileage profile in an all-city environment has yielded as high as a 95.1 mpg over a few mile segment but again, this is extreme hypermiling tactics in an all-city environment with the lightest car available here in the US. Not normal in the least.
___Anyway, there are a few non-Hybrids that regularly exceed the EPA’s highway estimates but in the city, they simply suck fuel like nobodies business. The Hybrid’s don’t receive anywhere near City estimates but do rather well given they do receive better mileage then their std. ICE counterparts. Just not as high a percentage as they probably should is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
As we all know, the answer to the question, "Can you get EPA numbers by just driving like a normal person" is NO right now. Maybe someday it can be yes.
___The following link should help give credence to this although the Prius listed is the Prius I, not the II.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/art...tegory.html%20/
___IIRC, the Prius II had a 35 mpg city, 50 + on the highway run (I am not sure what the exact highway number was?) and 44 mpg overall.
___Another piece or two of anecdotal evidence from Consumer Reports about Hybrids in particular …
Under test-track conditions, Consumer Reports found the Prius and hybrid Civic's actual mileage performance is 20 to 25 percent lower than the Environmental Protection Agency's lab-tested results. In fact, the two sedans fall as short of EPA claims as almost any vehicle Consumer Reports has tested in decades.
"These vehicles are designed to do well on the EPA cycle," said David Champion, Consumer Reports senior director of automotive testing. "If you're looking at a hybrid just as a financial investment, it doesn't make sense."
"These vehicles are designed to do well on the EPA cycle," said David Champion, Consumer Reports senior director of automotive testing. "If you're looking at a hybrid just as a financial investment, it doesn't make sense."
Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests.
Consumer Reports' senior auto test engineer Gabriel Shenhar says that while the EPA test is a lab simulation, Consumer Reports puts the cars on the streets and measures the fuel consumed to more accurately reflect gas mileage.
Consumer Reports' senior auto test engineer Gabriel Shenhar says that while the EPA test is a lab simulation, Consumer Reports puts the cars on the streets and measures the fuel consumed to more accurately reflect gas mileage.
___In regards to the Hybrid’s, I think the Prius II is the largest outlier given it is in its EV mode so much of the EPA’s city cycle and so many are expecting to see that 60 mpg mark on the FCD or calculated. I haven’t read of a single person that has received 60 mpg in an all city environment yet but I am sure there are many that do consistently tank over tank. Chisight and I took a brand new, un-warmed up, Prius II for a test drive in 32 degree temps about 6 to 7 months ago. I had a 56 mpg reading after something like 4 miles and Chisight had 57 mpg showing on the FCD (after reset) after it was warmed up on the way back but we were not driving “normally” either. This was in a pure all-city environment. If the Prius II was setup properly (0W-20), high pressure tires, warmer temps, hypermiling techniques, I am sure she could see 60 + on a continuing basis but maybe not while driving normally is all. With that, to exceed city estimates in the Insight (60 mpg), it takes some non-normal measures the few times I have taken her out for local drives or when I am driving from parked and finally get to the Interstate after ~ 2.5 miles either way. Running a maximum hypermileage profile in an all-city environment has yielded as high as a 95.1 mpg over a few mile segment but again, this is extreme hypermiling tactics in an all-city environment with the lightest car available here in the US. Not normal in the least.
___Anyway, there are a few non-Hybrids that regularly exceed the EPA’s highway estimates but in the city, they simply suck fuel like nobodies business. The Hybrid’s don’t receive anywhere near City estimates but do rather well given they do receive better mileage then their std. ICE counterparts. Just not as high a percentage as they probably should is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#5
08-24-2004, 11:21 AM
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,430
Actually, if you completely read that thread on this board where the Jayblues user asks the "can you get EPA numbers by driving like a normal person?" you can plainly see that the answer turns out to be no.
The proof is everywhere, including on this board, that "tricks" are required to beat EPA mileage in ALMOST ALL cases. Look at all the cars on the mileage database that are below EPA - do you think those people "drive like normal people?" I'd bet they do. In fact, the guy at the lowest MPG on the Prius II board has "just drive" as his strategy, and he is WAY below EPA ratings after 15 tanks.
As you noted, there are some exceptions - the GM V6 engines on highway driving, which somehow manage to meet or beat EPA pretty effectively being a good example. But overall, a small sampling of cars that meet EPA does not surpass the VAST NUMBER of cars which DO NOT achieve EPA ratings.
My own 2004 HCH MT is a good example: The lifetime mileage is 35.5 for about 6400 miles. EPA ratings are 46/51, right? If you can drive like a normal person and get EPA in this car, why would you think the previous owner (I bought it used) only got 34.4 for the first 4800 miles? You think he was driving it like a hot rod? I doubt he was.
I'm only getting 40.7 MPG after three plus tanks, and mine is mostly city driving. And my tires are 38 PSI, and I coast every chance I get and use other tricks. So I am definitely NOT "driving like a normal person," and I am falling at least 6 MPG below EPA.
I can estimate that if I "drove like a normal person" and did not use driving tricks, this car might fall as much as 25% below EPA. But I'm not basing my statement on MY experience alone - look at the database, and you see many people below EPA. Read other boards - many cars, not just Hybrids, are consistently below EPA.
The EPA tests are flawed for sure - if they weren't, shouldn't we be able to "just drive" and get EPA? No evidence exists (that I have seen) that this is true, except in rare cases.
So I conclude you CANNOT, in the vast majority of cases, get EPA numbers without using driving tricks, i.e., "not driving like a normal person."
If I'm wrong, point me to data to correct me, please !!!
The proof is everywhere, including on this board, that "tricks" are required to beat EPA mileage in ALMOST ALL cases. Look at all the cars on the mileage database that are below EPA - do you think those people "drive like normal people?" I'd bet they do. In fact, the guy at the lowest MPG on the Prius II board has "just drive" as his strategy, and he is WAY below EPA ratings after 15 tanks.
As you noted, there are some exceptions - the GM V6 engines on highway driving, which somehow manage to meet or beat EPA pretty effectively being a good example. But overall, a small sampling of cars that meet EPA does not surpass the VAST NUMBER of cars which DO NOT achieve EPA ratings.
My own 2004 HCH MT is a good example: The lifetime mileage is 35.5 for about 6400 miles. EPA ratings are 46/51, right? If you can drive like a normal person and get EPA in this car, why would you think the previous owner (I bought it used) only got 34.4 for the first 4800 miles? You think he was driving it like a hot rod? I doubt he was.
I'm only getting 40.7 MPG after three plus tanks, and mine is mostly city driving. And my tires are 38 PSI, and I coast every chance I get and use other tricks. So I am definitely NOT "driving like a normal person," and I am falling at least 6 MPG below EPA.
I can estimate that if I "drove like a normal person" and did not use driving tricks, this car might fall as much as 25% below EPA. But I'm not basing my statement on MY experience alone - look at the database, and you see many people below EPA. Read other boards - many cars, not just Hybrids, are consistently below EPA.
The EPA tests are flawed for sure - if they weren't, shouldn't we be able to "just drive" and get EPA? No evidence exists (that I have seen) that this is true, except in rare cases.
So I conclude you CANNOT, in the vast majority of cases, get EPA numbers without using driving tricks, i.e., "not driving like a normal person."
If I'm wrong, point me to data to correct me, please !!!
#6
08-24-2004, 11:41 AM
Hi Lars-ss:
___I was adding more to the above when you posted your own. As you said, I don’t think anyone will achieve EPA estimates driving normally in a hybrid. This does not include the many std. ICE’s out on the highway. I believe the Insight on a day when you didn’t need A/C yet relatively warm morning or night (65 degrees F or so) and when traveling a relatively flat state in an all highway environment will exceed 66 mpg at 65 mph as well but I don’t know for sure as I cannot simply turn off the hypermileage skills nor would I want to just to prove a point about lower fuel economy
___Given your comments about the GM V6’s, I don’t know if you read about my trip last month in a rented 04 Buick Le Sabre? We were traveling in and around Phoenix and Glendale, AZ., across AZ into Nevada, back across into California, and back to the Phoenix area again. This car wasn’t setup in the least (no high pressure tires or light weight synthetics) and the A/C was on MAX 100% of them time. Even so, I still beat EPA estimates driving 55 - 70 mph out on the highway. GM earned my respect after those 2,500 miles of close to normal driving given the half hour long jam into Hoover Dam, the many climbs of the mountain roads in and around Yosemite, a 1 hour + long stopped traffic jam at Tejon Pass in California, driving into San Francisco’s Wharf area and back out again, stuck in a few mile stop and go in the suburbs of LA, and while going over the mountain range bordering California’s coast and central California maybe 5 or 6 times. It did beat EPA estimates quite handily in fact and not only was I impressed, I most certainly wasn’t expecting it.
___With all of this, you may as well press up your tires to 50 + to get even more out of her then what you are currently. The ride comfort is sacrificed at ~ every 2.5 pound increase as you probably already know. If you are using A/C in your HCH, you are using it in Econ mode, right?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___I was adding more to the above when you posted your own. As you said, I don’t think anyone will achieve EPA estimates driving normally in a hybrid. This does not include the many std. ICE’s out on the highway. I believe the Insight on a day when you didn’t need A/C yet relatively warm morning or night (65 degrees F or so) and when traveling a relatively flat state in an all highway environment will exceed 66 mpg at 65 mph as well but I don’t know for sure as I cannot simply turn off the hypermileage skills nor would I want to just to prove a point about lower fuel economy
___Given your comments about the GM V6’s, I don’t know if you read about my trip last month in a rented 04 Buick Le Sabre? We were traveling in and around Phoenix and Glendale, AZ., across AZ into Nevada, back across into California, and back to the Phoenix area again. This car wasn’t setup in the least (no high pressure tires or light weight synthetics) and the A/C was on MAX 100% of them time. Even so, I still beat EPA estimates driving 55 - 70 mph out on the highway. GM earned my respect after those 2,500 miles of close to normal driving given the half hour long jam into Hoover Dam, the many climbs of the mountain roads in and around Yosemite, a 1 hour + long stopped traffic jam at Tejon Pass in California, driving into San Francisco’s Wharf area and back out again, stuck in a few mile stop and go in the suburbs of LA, and while going over the mountain range bordering California’s coast and central California maybe 5 or 6 times. It did beat EPA estimates quite handily in fact and not only was I impressed, I most certainly wasn’t expecting it.
___With all of this, you may as well press up your tires to 50 + to get even more out of her then what you are currently. The ride comfort is sacrificed at ~ every 2.5 pound increase as you probably already know. If you are using A/C in your HCH, you are using it in Econ mode, right?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#7
08-24-2004, 12:58 PM
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,430
So I guess we are in general agreement. I just wanted to point out that without driving tricks, MOST hybrids, at least the ones on the database on this board, will not achieve EPA under "normal" circumstances.
If you look closely at the database, almost all the people in the upper levels of MPG mention some tricks or driving styles or up-inflated PSI or have long highway commutes, while most of the lower MPG cars mention using no tricks at all.
I'm all for the tricks though, and I use all of them every chance I can. I hope to someday have a 50+ tank in my MT HCH in city driving, which will exceed EPA by about 8%. I will be very interested to see how my HCH fares in the cooler months in Phoenix, when I can avoid A/C and have the windows up. ( Right now, if it is cool enough to go without A/C, I must still have the windows down to provide enough cool air, which increases drag and reduces my MPG. )
Laterz..............
If you look closely at the database, almost all the people in the upper levels of MPG mention some tricks or driving styles or up-inflated PSI or have long highway commutes, while most of the lower MPG cars mention using no tricks at all.
I'm all for the tricks though, and I use all of them every chance I can. I hope to someday have a 50+ tank in my MT HCH in city driving, which will exceed EPA by about 8%. I will be very interested to see how my HCH fares in the cooler months in Phoenix, when I can avoid A/C and have the windows up. ( Right now, if it is cool enough to go without A/C, I must still have the windows down to provide enough cool air, which increases drag and reduces my MPG. )
Laterz..............
#8
08-24-2004, 01:15 PM
Hi Lars-ss:
___You are more then likely correct on all counts in regards to Hybrids. I still believe the 5-speed Insight can achieve 66 mpg at 65 mph in 65 degree temps given I usually receive 100 - 105 mpg at 39 - 59 mph w/out A/C but I am not sure as I don’t ever drive that fast. Given you live in the Phoenix heat, you just don’t stand a chance w/ 100% MAX A/C on at all times in a car with a rather underpowered ICE
The Le Sabre we rented however did receive 26.9 per the FCD (24 – 25 mpg actual possibly?) in the all-city Phoenix/Glendale environment running 100% MAX A/C but I was using rabbit and regular timing to its extremes as well as coasting from further then normal costing distances to achieve such. Out on the highway, I was just marvelously impressed is all …
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___You are more then likely correct on all counts in regards to Hybrids. I still believe the 5-speed Insight can achieve 66 mpg at 65 mph in 65 degree temps given I usually receive 100 - 105 mpg at 39 - 59 mph w/out A/C but I am not sure as I don’t ever drive that fast. Given you live in the Phoenix heat, you just don’t stand a chance w/ 100% MAX A/C on at all times in a car with a rather underpowered ICE
The Le Sabre we rented however did receive 26.9 per the FCD (24 – 25 mpg actual possibly?) in the all-city Phoenix/Glendale environment running 100% MAX A/C but I was using rabbit and regular timing to its extremes as well as coasting from further then normal costing distances to achieve such. Out on the highway, I was just marvelously impressed is all … ___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#9
08-24-2004, 03:51 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
Lars-ss, when I mention this please don't think it is reference specifically to you, in light that you have mentioned applying some fuel saving techniques yourself.
I can't really see a fault in the hybrid industry but would like, like most to see the EPA update its techniques. The MFG's statement "Mileage will vary" is especially true with hybrid cars.
The difference in MPG between low and high is more than 30MPG in my car.
Personally I'd like to see a low and high number posted.
I see some parallels with the diet food industry.
Many people are overweight because of habits....Lifestyle I suppose it's called.
Some buy the more expensive diet food....but refuse to change lifestyle habits.
Because they are not willing to do their part, the more expensive food has little effect on the bathroom scale.
Some may even write the food manufacturers, EPA, magazines and newspapers about the misinformation and claims made by the diet food industry.
On the other hand some buy the same food, seek some advice and make the habit changes and see wonderful results.
Am I too far off base here?
I can't really see a fault in the hybrid industry but would like, like most to see the EPA update its techniques. The MFG's statement "Mileage will vary" is especially true with hybrid cars.
The difference in MPG between low and high is more than 30MPG in my car.
Personally I'd like to see a low and high number posted.
I see some parallels with the diet food industry.
Many people are overweight because of habits....Lifestyle I suppose it's called.
Some buy the more expensive diet food....but refuse to change lifestyle habits.
Because they are not willing to do their part, the more expensive food has little effect on the bathroom scale.
Some may even write the food manufacturers, EPA, magazines and newspapers about the misinformation and claims made by the diet food industry.
On the other hand some buy the same food, seek some advice and make the habit changes and see wonderful results.
Am I too far off base here?
#10
08-24-2004, 04:03 PM
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,430
Yes, I see the parallel analogy in regard to people changing their habits, or else not being able or willing to do so. ( I know that if someone wanted me to curb my own chocolate addiction, they could take a flying leap !! ) 
What I (and we all should ) expect from ALL industries, not just the automotive industry, is to CHANGE WITH THE TIMES at hand when circumstances demand it!!!
The current EPA MPG test was created in a bygone era, and updated ONCE in about 40 years. That's not staying with the times.
I agree with your idea to have EPA post "high and low" numbers instead of City and Highway - THAT is an idea with contemporary intent, i.e. helping bring the data into this millenium. People today do a lot of mixed hwy and city driving - much more than in the past.
I would still have bought my Hybrid if the EPA numbers on the sticker had been "34 and 62" for a low and a high range. Being an optomist, I would have said, "YES I'm going for the 62 !!" I fear that some people might EXPECT to get 62, and STILL get upset when they got less, however....Human Nature maybe?
Anyway, we just all should do what we can to get the most MPG out of our car depending on the driving we must do, not only to save the air and reduce consumption and save money, but just because it's the right thing to do...
My2Cents Again...........
What I (and we all should ) expect from ALL industries, not just the automotive industry, is to CHANGE WITH THE TIMES at hand when circumstances demand it!!!
The current EPA MPG test was created in a bygone era, and updated ONCE in about 40 years. That's not staying with the times.
I agree with your idea to have EPA post "high and low" numbers instead of City and Highway - THAT is an idea with contemporary intent, i.e. helping bring the data into this millenium. People today do a lot of mixed hwy and city driving - much more than in the past.
I would still have bought my Hybrid if the EPA numbers on the sticker had been "34 and 62" for a low and a high range. Being an optomist, I would have said, "YES I'm going for the 62 !!" I fear that some people might EXPECT to get 62, and STILL get upset when they got less, however....Human Nature maybe?
Anyway, we just all should do what we can to get the most MPG out of our car depending on the driving we must do, not only to save the air and reduce consumption and save money, but just because it's the right thing to do...
My2Cents Again...........
