Are they from an actual drivers perspective? Let me know when that can happen.

So it doesn't seem a bit suspicious that GM bought Hummer right around (no, exactly BEFORE) the EV1 got the ax? To me, something ain't right with that. I love a good reality theory. So sorry about the misinformation. I'll try not to connect the dots next time. Actually I should stop watching Who Killed the Electric Car and get out there and buy a low emission, high MPG GM vehicle...

Time is ticking and all GM knows is marketing/advertising. Since when does that keep a company afloat?

Yes, it's true. I do not respect GM one bit. I'm as un-american as the next person who expects more from a car company. Lead instead of advertise. Sell me a better car instead of insulting me with stupid ads. No waiting, it must be done now.

 

finman,

I will accept the fact that you have no respect for GM and I will choose not to burden myself with changing your outlook. Only time and excellent product can do that. I will, however, offer to enter into any level of dialogue you would like as a means of providing you with FACTS about what the company has done and is doing to positively impact the environment on a number of levels.

HUMMER is what it is and it speaks to a limited group of consumers. But it is one of 10 GM brands globally and among the smallest in volume. To assume that GM = HUMMER is like saying General Mills only makes Cheerios. The decision to discontinue the EV-1 and the decision to acquire the HUMMER brand would have originated in very different parts of the company and one would not have in any way led to the other.

Chevrolet is by far the largest brand globally in volume and has a number of vehicles that get 30 or more mpg highway, including a new Cobalt XFE that gets 36 hwy. Outside the US there are even more fuel efficient cars that for varying reasons, are not available for sale in the US.

In Europe, the Opel brand is very competitive wrt fuel consumption, as is the Chevy brand as it appears in Europe.

But seriously, send me a pm and I'd be more than happy to provide you more insight on what GM has done and is doing in an email exchange, rather than burn hybrid website bandwidth discussing non-hybrid issues.

Peace,

Martin

 

Toyota sold nearly 200,000 Tundra trucks last year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki) that carry the same 2008 EPA mpg rating as the H3 (13-16). If I am not mistaken, this is 3x the number of Hummers sold last year in this country. GM has already introduced hybrid versions of large vehicles. When will Toyota do the same?

 

Specifications for 600h, Lexus hybrid:

• 5,220 lbs. curb weight
• 5L / 302 CID engine

Not large enough? <grins>

Bob Wilson

 

When will Toyota offer a hybrid version of their big Tundra as GM does with their vehicles?

 

Martin,

I do appreciate the invite and replies.

Time will tell if GM can compete. It sure sounds like they can. I am sure many want them to. I'm unsure they can from my purely consumer viewpoint. I see and experience better vehicles daily and they don't say GM on the back. Everyone's mileage may vary...

 

BillyK,
Maybe Toyota knows something we don't? Just as Martin has inside GM news? Maybe $50,000 and 20 MPG hybrid vehicles won't sell? I don't know. It seems the above market I described is too small to mean anything. Especially with oil at an all-time high. Daily.

I'm sure the plan is to sell a bunch of HSD vehicles to a larger market and go from there, establishing the merit of the hybrid system. Seems that is working if one checks the hybrid sales numbers and profits. I sure as heck wouldn't want to try to sell in the large truck market right now, hybrid or not!

If HSD has taken 10 years to establish (THS first, then HSD just 5 years ago) when gas was pretty cheap (maybe $2/gallon average), how does GM see a substantial enough market of large hybrid trucks to keep them afloat? Fleet sales of trucks? I can't quite see the logic yet...the early numbers are not impressive for the HSD-killer it's been marketed as.

 

Finman,

The primary reason Toyota doesn't have Tundra Hybrid is they have found that the size they would have to scale the electric motor to will not package in the vehicle. They'll figure it out one day, just not as soon as they had hoped.

Toyota realizes, just as GM and Ford do, that although hybrids generate an incredible amount of great pr and goodwill among the vehicle buying public, large trucks have been the money makers in the US for many years. They and Nissan have tried time and again to crack the large pickup / SUV nut with only moderate success. Even as the market for those vehicles is shrinking fast in the face of high fuel prices (gas AND diesel) they both remain committed to gaining entry to that market segment. One day, hybrid large pickups and SUVs may become commonplace. If / when that happens, GM and Dodge will be in that space first with the 2-Mode system. If not, both companies are already in place with a strong portfolio of products.

Peace,

Martin

 

Is this a documented fact that Toyota has shared with you? The packaging/scaling up of HSD that isn't happening? Maybe you can't divulge sources, it's all hush-hush in car mfg. No matter, there are far too many varibles, I'm sure.

It seems the price of oil should be a major inhibitor to producing large trucks to the commuting public, hybrid or not. Yes, they've been HUGE $$$ makers, but that market is going away and I am seeing Toyota and other high-MPG/low-emission companies thriving.

So, if "first" means a meager number of truck hybrids at a price many won't/can't pay, I feel that won't keep ANY vehicle mfg. afloat. And if you continue to discount vehicles just to get rid of them...well, this practice appears to be hurting GM more than any other car company.

Again, time will tell, as will sales numbers.

 

Have I personally spoken to a Toyota rep who has said this is fact? No.
Do I know it to be fact based on people who have? Yes
Have I seen technical teardowns, properties, analyses and scale ups? Yes

Trust me, I know that on a family level or a personal level, gas prices impact vehicle purchase. There is no doubt that OVER TIME the vehicle mix will shift heavily away from trucks to small cars. It's happening now. But the SIZE of the truck and SUV market is so large that it will take quite some time for the shift to clearly take hold. Truth be told, the shift started a couple years ago. Even with that being the case, Toyota has just completed and launched a plant in Texas to build large trucks. Nissan has just entered into an agreement with Chrysler that has Chrysler supplying the Dodge Ram badged as a Nissan to replace the next generation of Nissan Titan. The full size truck market will shrink significantly, but it will still be very profitable.

First means first to prove the technology and then move on with development of next generations that can be produced in higher volume for lower cost and smaller packaging. Hybrids by themselves aren't going to keep any manufacturer afloat. They will become a very important piece of any large manufacturers portfolio in order to meet the new CAFE laws, but they will not be the centermass of profitability for anyone.

As far as deep discounting, the last time I checked, Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan had much larger incentives than Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra, and Ford F150. GM has over the past 3 or 4 years discounted less than any other domestic automaker and is continuosly launching product that transacts at sticker (Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia).

Peace,

Martin