Lewis:

Thanks for the feedback. It's helpful to know that there are meaningful gains in mpg over the normal V6. I test drove the HAH again today -- hard to organize because dealers have to use cars pre-ordered by other customers. The demand has its negative side -- dealers aren't moving much if any below MSRP. When taxes etc. are factored in, this almost doubles the premium one pays over the EX V6. I may have to wait until the initial rush settles down.

 

David,
Where are you located? I paid $500 over invoice for my HAH w/ Navi. That was in Abilene. I found a dealer in Louisiana that offered AT invoice - w/ or w/out Navi. I used that pressure to make my deal in Abilene. A dealer in Dallas would do $500 over, as well. BUT, both TX dealers couldn't believe the LA dealer was offering at invoice. They cussed a lot, but eventually did it.

The LA dealer said he was trying to move as many as he could to boost his alocation.

I can give you names / numbers if you're anywhere in the vicinity. I'm going to Vegas in the morning, though. I *might* log on while there, but it will likely be Sunday b4 I'm back on this site.

Let me know if you're interested.

 

Try getting some price quotes online from more remote dealerships. If you can lock one in below MSRP, take it into your local dealer and see if they will match it. If nobody local will, you could always just make the trip out to wherever and just buy it there.

The beauty of the internet is that the market is now far broader than it was before.

 

Wish I could take advantage of your info but I am in Toronto, Canada. It seems that dealers here have minimal allocations of hybrids. It's even worse for the Prius -- some dealers actually have to rent one to give customers a test drive. My daughters travel regularly to Las Vegas and California and expect to live in the U.S. It's too bad importation is such as messy business!

By the way, Cdn. web sites are claiming that dealer cost here is 92% of MRSP for the EX V6 and 96% for the HAH. If the latter is correct, it leaves very little room for negotiation. Do you know the equivalent percentages in the U.S.?

 

CR's MPG figures aren't from a lab or track, they are road conditions, and are somewhat variable. They use trained staff drivers and similar conditions to try to minimize variables, but it's not always identical or reproducable, like the EPA figures. I remember reading the full report on how they test vehicles, but couldn't find the link.

They do NOT drive for efficiency, but instead how most drivers would drive. A V-6 would be driven to take advantage of the engine, on the idea that if a buyer pays extra they would expect better performance. They don't floor it, but overall performance of the car is evaluated in the driving. Their numbers are probably more realistic to most people than the EPA's (and nearly every car getting lower numbers) but many get better, some may get worse. It's fair to say the standard Accord V-6 was driven the same as the Hybrid and can be used as a basis for comparison, but driving for efficiency in the standard might not yield you the same benefits as the Hybrid.

 

What I would supsect is the case is that the Consumer Reports testing involves hard speeding almost the entire way without a lot of stop and go. Going much faster than 70 really eats into fuel economy quick, and if most of their miles were driven at 85, ignoring things like driving "with load" (ie, a bit quicker downhill, a bit slower uphill), then the hybrid tech woudln't actually be used at all for steady speed driving... although steady speed driving at that rate would burn through a lot of fuel still, making the milage both lower, and closer to a regular ICE car. If you're interested in driving your car like a race car, a hybrid is a pretty stupid decision.

I drive a '03 HCH, whcih they gave 36mph. My worst-case-scenario tank was driven lead-foot style--average 75mph+, powering my way over hills, lots of fast accelerations, passing people etc. Add into the mix the fact that my tires had fallen to a noticably low PSI, they felt sloppy to drive on. That tank was about 38 mpg. Had they done that with the AC on, I could see getting 36. I also live on top of a big hill, and took mostly very, very, short trips that tank.

My most recent tank has the complete opposite philosophy, using a lot of the mileage tricks described around here. I've been getting 55mpg, despite living on top of the hill (I've actually got climbing the hill I live on down to a fine art, I know exactly how much electric assist to use to get the full usefulness out of my battery pack by the time I get to the top.) For long "flat" highway trips I sometimes average over 60.

the HAH would be a perfect car for someone who plans to drive conservatively most of the time on the highway, yet would still like the available power to pass cars on mountain roads quickly, or be able to handle a uphill trip in a hurry if necessary, or drive the car like a race car on occasion.

 

If they drove the cars differently, it wouldn't be a very good comparison! They don't drive like a hypermiler because their readers don't. They drive like a regular adult would, not flooring it, not 85MPH, but zippy acceleration and keeping up with traffic on highway. I couldn't find the specifics online, I think I read it in the Car Buying Guide they publish, where they detailed their road test routine. For my Prius and my last two Saturns, my MPG was similar to what they got. I'm not a hypermiler, and I like that I get 45MPG despite hard city driving. I don't drive like a race car, but I don't think buying this car was "stupid" either. My last car was listed as "efficient" at 34/24 and now I get double real world mileage in the city, with a bigger, heavier, faster car. I might not get the BEST possible mileage, but I get everything I want. I never "drive with load", go 75MPH on the highway (faster when passing), blast the AC if I'm hot and leave it running with the dog in it... I'm probably a "real world" driver.

I would imagine most Accord drivers WANT power, since it has so much to give! Some reviewer (CR?) said it has V8 performance with 4cyl economy. Those who are more economy minded might pick a different, less powerful car.

Personally, I don't think anyone has to "learn" to drive a hybrid, unless they want to. That just makes people think these vehicles don't deliver on their promises and are slow and underpowered. Drive like I want AND get great mileage? Now THAT's technology!

 

I agree with that. There is a difference between "real world" driving--taking advantage of acceleration and steady driving at 70 or so--and guys who burn rubber and speed all the time. I was referring to the latter when I mentioned that hybrids wouldn't be a good idea. I just find the consumer report FE ratings still a bit too low, considering even "real world" drivers tend to get low 40s MPG on the HCH. Not mid 30s.

For the last couple tanks I've been enoying the hypermiling thing as a bit of an experiment, to find out what is the best fuel economy I can get for my commute. After a while, I'll settle into a more natural style with the occasional "good fuel economy" trick thrown in here or there.

True. Most of the people I've let test drive the Civic actually expected it to be a lot more underpowered than it really is. People also tend to expect a car to deliver a bit under the EPA estimates no matter what, hybrid or otherwise. The only thing that seemed strange to me is the fact that the Consumer Report showed almost no improvement between the Hybrid Accord and the standard Accord.

 

[edit by Jason] You may find this post useful: https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...44&postcount=9

Hi TXRxPh:

If you drive your HAH with certain techniques you can achieve great MPG.
The information above from Mark is exactly what happens when you drive your HAH. Congratualtions Mark, the HAH man. Glad to see you here again. You "fly" your HAH from Edmunds to this website so fast.

 

I drive the NYS thruway about 70 miles to work each day at exactly 65MPH.

Lately I've been getting 40.+ each way. Even when bucking a headwind, I can still get 38.+mpg.
Up hills I just tap the cruise control down 1 tap at a time to keep the eco lite on and then return to speed when I'm over the top. Best trip so far....42.6 mpg...with a tailwind.
hans