Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
#11
04-17-2008, 07:09 AM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
I want to eliminate passive safety (collision) from the scope of discussion, because passive safety improvements are universal to all vehicles and are being handled already. For active safety, one could say that technology could solve the problem with automatic brake application when front-end sensors detect sudden movements. But that kind of technology would take years and years to ever trickle down to affordable cars. On the other hand, active safety includes driver and pedestrian awareness and self-defence. But the driver has the upper-hand in these situations; When people make an error, how well-equipped is the other to compensate? Many fully-enabled pedestrians can cope. Personally, I believe injecting an audible and inoffensive sound to hybrids is a doddle, will directly address the issue, and would cost very little. Pedestrians have other hazards besides automobiles, but that should also be out of scope for this discussion.
If my feedback is bewildering, then maybe this will help explain my position, which I think is more philosophical in nature: People, young and old, fully-abled and partially-abled, animals, and others, are a fundamental part of the world. It is not their intrinsic guilt that there should be man-made dangers. The automobile is an intrusion and imposition on the world, and for those with the privilege to own or drive one, it is their imperative to progressively minimize their impact, in all possible ways, including making compromises for the welfare of others. Don't make them somebody else's problem.
If my feedback is bewildering, then maybe this will help explain my position, which I think is more philosophical in nature: People, young and old, fully-abled and partially-abled, animals, and others, are a fundamental part of the world. It is not their intrinsic guilt that there should be man-made dangers. The automobile is an intrusion and imposition on the world, and for those with the privilege to own or drive one, it is their imperative to progressively minimize their impact, in all possible ways, including making compromises for the welfare of others. Don't make them somebody else's problem.
Last edited by spinner; 04-17-2008 at 07:12 AM.
#13
04-17-2008, 08:34 AM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
. . . Many fully-enabled pedestrians can cope. Personally, I believe injecting an audible and inoffensive sound to hybrids is a doddle, will directly address the issue, and would cost very little. Pedestrians have other hazards besides automobiles, but that should also be out of scope for this discussion.
. . . If my feedback is bewildering, then maybe this will help explain my position, which I think is more philosophical in nature: People, young and old, fully-abled and partially-abled, animals, and others, are a fundamental part of the world. It is not their intrinsic guilt that there should be man-made dangers. The automobile is an intrusion and imposition on the world, and for those with the privilege to own or drive one, it is their imperative to progressively minimize their impact, in all possible ways, including making compromises for the welfare of others. Don't make them somebody else's problem.
Bob Wilson
#15
04-17-2008, 07:51 PM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
Maybe the answer is simpler, increase the audio acuity of the blind, give them hearing aids. According to their Professor, it sounds like a 4-5 dB gain, a 3 times multiplier, is all it takes.
Bob Wilson
Bob Wilson
#16
04-19-2008, 10:01 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 941
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
This same issue came about with EVs. However, if all cars were EVs there would be no sounds of other cars driving around do muffle the sound of tires rolling along pavement. Like EVs, hybrids are helping reduce noise pollution. IMO the last thing we need is to make our cars loud again.
#17
06-24-2008, 12:31 PM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
A strong argument, based upon the second study, would require the blind to wear a half-top, motorcycle or bicycle helmet when walking. They might still be injured but the helmet would greatly increase their survival rate regardless of the vehicle involved in the accident. A blind safety helmet could include electronic enhancements to extend their hearing range and detect oncoming traffic. So along with their white cane, a white safety helmet, possibly with a super-bright, flashing, LED, would improve their outcome while walking.
The blind may suffer from a narrow understanding of acceptable solutions . . . when all you have is a hammer, all problems resemble a nail. Reduced to touch and hearing, it is natural that they would think adding sound solves the problem. Yet they are also being struck by ordinary vehicles today. It would be a tragedy if the last thing a dead pedestrian heard was faux engine noise, which looks to be the only solution proposed by the blind.
I thought I would add something to this discussion, which I found by chance:The blind may suffer from a narrow understanding of acceptable solutions . . . when all you have is a hammer, all problems resemble a nail. Reduced to touch and hearing, it is natural that they would think adding sound solves the problem. Yet they are also being struck by ordinary vehicles today. It would be a tragedy if the last thing a dead pedestrian heard was faux engine noise, which looks to be the only solution proposed by the blind.
I am a blind pedestrian, and I'm simply amazed at the lack of knowledge about how I and others who are blind actually travel. I was in Stockholm last summer, where a substantial number of taxis are Priuses. It is disconcerting, because they make no noise: that's no problem if they are mixed in with conventional cars, but when a lone Hybrid is in my space, I might have a problem. Right turning cars at a green traffic light are always a problem, with hybrids the problem becomes a bit more serious. I assume you know, that a white cane, used when I cross the road, means cars MUST stop. The suggestion that I would have to wear a helmet so drivers can violate basic rules of traffic simply makes no sense. The suggestion that "electronic aids" will ameliorate the basic problem is simply ludicrous: I don't need to extend my range of hearing, I simply need meaningful input to discern whether it's safe to cross the road. So I listen for traffic surges and for the sound of cars that are stationary as they wait a traffic light. Also, I don't need LOTS of noise: just enough to let me know what cars are doing. That's all. I don't see why that should be a problem. And I must be honest with you: sound is the only reliable solution here. The GPS suggestion may look nice technically, but it will never help me in everyday life. And the wearing of helmets: I already announce my presence as a blind person in traffic: it is others who should observe the rules of traffic in this case. Almost everyone I know (blind) who has had an accidence had this happen to them either by the carelessness of car drivers or because they relied on a sighted person who said it was "safe to cross". I've been traveling, sightless, for most of my adult life, the only accident I've had was with a bike rider who didn't see me. And I didn't hear him.
By the way: this site's captcha made it impossible for me to register without sighted help.
Last edited by lodro; 06-24-2008 at 12:34 PM.
#18
06-24-2008, 01:05 PM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
First off, welcome to GreenHybrid.com. One of the moderators here, we look forward to discussions and we encourage folks with different points of view.
One thing you mentioned is difficulty getting "registered." I know NASA has some standards to make sure web sites work for the blind. I don't know the technical details but was wondering if you might have a good URL for systems we can use to test access for the blind?
I am a blind pedestrian, and I'm simply amazed at the lack of knowledge about how I and others who are blind actually travel. I was in Stockholm last summer, where a substantial number of taxis are Priuses. It is disconcerting, because they make no noise: that's no problem if they are mixed in with conventional cars, but when a lone Hybrid is in my space, I might have a problem. Right turning cars at a green traffic light are always a problem, with hybrids the problem becomes a bit more serious. I assume you know, that a white cane, used when I cross the road, means cars MUST stop. The suggestion that I would have to wear a helmet so drivers can violate basic rules of traffic simply makes no sense. The suggestion that "electronic aids" will ameliorate the basic problem is simply ludicrous: I don't need to extend my range of hearing, I simply need meaningful input to discern whether it's safe to cross the road. So I listen for traffic surges and for the sound of cars that are stationary as they wait a traffic light. Also, I don't need LOTS of noise: just enough to let me know what cars are doing. That's all. I don't see why that should be a problem. And I must be honest with you: sound is the only reliable solution here. The GPS suggestion may look nice technically, but it will never help me in everyday life. And the wearing of helmets: I already announce my presence as a blind person in traffic: it is others who should observe the rules of traffic in this case. Almost everyone I know (blind) who has had an accidence had this happen to them either by the carelessness of car drivers or because they relied on a sighted person who said it was "safe to cross". I've been traveling, sightless, for most of my adult life, the only accident I've had was with a bike rider who didn't see me. And I didn't hear him.
By the way: this site's captcha made it impossible for me to register without sighted help.
I just returned from the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration meeting held Monday, June 23. Did you get a chance to attend or hear much about it?
About the other items, I'd like to share my thinking:
I've used the GPS in my studies and realize it is too imprecise for this task. It has its uses but not in this case.
Hopefully, later tonight you'll enjoy reading my 'trip report.'
Bob Wilson
One thing you mentioned is difficulty getting "registered." I know NASA has some standards to make sure web sites work for the blind. I don't know the technical details but was wondering if you might have a good URL for systems we can use to test access for the blind?
A strong argument, based upon the second study, would require the blind to wear a half-top, motorcycle or bicycle helmet when walking. They might still be injured but the helmet would greatly increase their survival rate regardless of the vehicle involved in the accident. A blind safety helmet could include electronic enhancements to extend their hearing range and detect oncoming traffic. So along with their white cane, a white safety helmet, possibly with a super-bright, flashing, LED, would improve their outcome while walking.
The blind may suffer from a narrow understanding of acceptable solutions . . . when all you have is a hammer, all problems resemble a nail. Reduced to touch and hearing, it is natural that they would think adding sound solves the problem. Yet they are also being struck by ordinary vehicles today. It would be a tragedy if the last thing a dead pedestrian heard was faux engine noise, which looks to be the only solution proposed by the blind.
I thought I would add something to this discussion, which I found by chance:The blind may suffer from a narrow understanding of acceptable solutions . . . when all you have is a hammer, all problems resemble a nail. Reduced to touch and hearing, it is natural that they would think adding sound solves the problem. Yet they are also being struck by ordinary vehicles today. It would be a tragedy if the last thing a dead pedestrian heard was faux engine noise, which looks to be the only solution proposed by the blind.
I am a blind pedestrian, and I'm simply amazed at the lack of knowledge about how I and others who are blind actually travel. I was in Stockholm last summer, where a substantial number of taxis are Priuses. It is disconcerting, because they make no noise: that's no problem if they are mixed in with conventional cars, but when a lone Hybrid is in my space, I might have a problem. Right turning cars at a green traffic light are always a problem, with hybrids the problem becomes a bit more serious. I assume you know, that a white cane, used when I cross the road, means cars MUST stop. The suggestion that I would have to wear a helmet so drivers can violate basic rules of traffic simply makes no sense. The suggestion that "electronic aids" will ameliorate the basic problem is simply ludicrous: I don't need to extend my range of hearing, I simply need meaningful input to discern whether it's safe to cross the road. So I listen for traffic surges and for the sound of cars that are stationary as they wait a traffic light. Also, I don't need LOTS of noise: just enough to let me know what cars are doing. That's all. I don't see why that should be a problem. And I must be honest with you: sound is the only reliable solution here. The GPS suggestion may look nice technically, but it will never help me in everyday life. And the wearing of helmets: I already announce my presence as a blind person in traffic: it is others who should observe the rules of traffic in this case. Almost everyone I know (blind) who has had an accidence had this happen to them either by the carelessness of car drivers or because they relied on a sighted person who said it was "safe to cross". I've been traveling, sightless, for most of my adult life, the only accident I've had was with a bike rider who didn't see me. And I didn't hear him.
By the way: this site's captcha made it impossible for me to register without sighted help.
About the other items, I'd like to share my thinking:
- protective gear - this is meant to deal with an accident, not to give license. Bicyclists and in some states, motorcyclist wear helmets to minimize fatalities. If I go roller-blade or skate-boarding, I'll have gloves, knee-pads, elbow pads and a light duty helmet. If at dark, I'll also have a light. I do these things not to give 'license to kill' ("Hey Earl, let's see how far that roller-blade guy will bounce.") but rather to deal with distracted, inattentive drivers who may miss seeing me but not their bumper. Also, I'm sometimes clumsy.
- hybrid cars - actually there was an interesting presentation by Les Blomberg, Noise Pollution Clearinghouse, and he pointed out the bigger picture is the high ambient noise is masking not only hybrids but all modern, smaller cars. It is like trying to hold a conversation in at a party. Over time, the sound levels grow louder and louder as everyone tries to communication until you are nearly shouting into someone's ear. He had some excellent charts showing how this "sound masking" works. This is why using a hearing aid won't work. Amplification of an over-loaded audio doesn't make it clearer, it just sells more aspirin.
I've used the GPS in my studies and realize it is too imprecise for this task. It has its uses but not in this case.
Hopefully, later tonight you'll enjoy reading my 'trip report.'
Bob Wilson
Last edited by bwilson4web; 06-24-2008 at 01:09 PM.
#19
06-24-2008, 01:44 PM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
First off, welcome to GreenHybrid.com. One of the moderators here, we look forward to discussions and we encourage folks with different points of view.
One thing you mentioned is difficulty getting "registered." I know NASA has some standards to make sure web sites work for the blind. I don't know the technical details but was wondering if you might have a good URL for systems we can use to test access for the blind?
I just returned from the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration meeting held Monday, June 23. Did you get a chance to attend or hear much about it?
About the other items, I'd like to share my thinking:
I've used the GPS in my studies and realize it is too imprecise for this task. It has its uses but not in this case.
Hopefully, later tonight you'll enjoy reading my 'trip report.'
Bob Wilson
One thing you mentioned is difficulty getting "registered." I know NASA has some standards to make sure web sites work for the blind. I don't know the technical details but was wondering if you might have a good URL for systems we can use to test access for the blind?
I just returned from the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration meeting held Monday, June 23. Did you get a chance to attend or hear much about it?
About the other items, I'd like to share my thinking:
- protective gear - this is meant to deal with an accident, not to give license. Bicyclists and in some states, motorcyclist wear helmets to minimize fatalities. If I go roller-blade or skate-boarding, I'll have gloves, knee-pads, elbow pads and a light duty helmet. If at dark, I'll also have a light. I do these things not to give 'license to kill' ("Hey Earl, let's see how far that roller-blade guy will bounce.") but rather to deal with distracted, inattentive drivers who may miss seeing me but not their bumper. Also, I'm sometimes clumsy.
- hybrid cars - actually there was an interesting presentation by Les Blomberg, Noise Pollution Clearinghouse, and he pointed out the bigger picture is the high ambient noise is masking not only hybrids but all modern, smaller cars. It is like trying to hold a conversation in at a party. Over time, the sound levels grow louder and louder as everyone tries to communication until you are nearly shouting into someone's ear. He had some excellent charts showing how this "sound masking" works. This is why using a hearing aid won't work. Amplification of an over-loaded audio doesn't make it clearer, it just sells more aspirin.
I've used the GPS in my studies and realize it is too imprecise for this task. It has its uses but not in this case.
Hopefully, later tonight you'll enjoy reading my 'trip report.'
Bob Wilson
info on accessibility: wikipedia is a good starting point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_accessibility
on headgear: i beg to differ. I live in the netherlands, where the number of bicycle related accidents is very low, despite the fact that no one wears bicycle helmets, not even children, because provisions have been made for bike traffic (separate bike lanes for instance). The only thing I would be asking is a not too loud sound, signaling that a car is approaching or waiting. As long as there are non-hybrids, the only danger is that posed by "lone" hybrids. I'd like to hear those coming. As I said: me announcing my presence by means of a cane should be enough to alert a driver. It alerts non-hybrid drivers, so why not drivers of hybrids. After all, that's why there are white cane laws. I make myself very conspicuous, indeed, wearing LED lights at night. However, I have to rely on my hearing and again, I have traveled safely for most of my adult life. A bike helmet won't make me safer in traffic. Using sound patterns does. It's a skill everyone learns in mobility training.
#20
06-24-2008, 02:18 PM
Re: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars
]From:] Bob Brooks [mailto:robert.brooks@sagemavionics.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:14 PM
To: 'martin.zimmerman@latimes.com'
Subject: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars[/FONT]
Dear Mr. Zimmerman,
Your otherwise excellent article on blind pedestrians and their problems with hybrid cars neglected several important points.
The most important one is that alternative technologies already exist that would provide a solution for the blind as well as establish a platform for other types of warnings for individuals with limited or no sight. As an engineer in the aerospace industry I have long worked with transponders. Over the past twenty years these devices have gotten smaller and cheaper. They are now commonplace for applications as diverse as bridge tolls, parking building access, and even HOV lane access.
This technology, deployed as a global transmitter in the vehicle and a small receiver for the blind pedestrian could potentially be utilized to provide additional stereoscopic warnings in the future for traffic crossings, bicycles, electric scooters and a whole host of applications designed to overcome visual impairment. Insofar as cost, the transponder should cost no more that the proposed noise maker, and would be much more environmentally responsible. The receiver would also be low cost, and government assistance with its acquisition would be vastly preferable to further increasing the background noise level in our already noisy cities.
Unfortunately, the Congress, in its rush to provide a stop-gap and poorly thought out solution has orchestrated the hearing in respect of House Resolution 5734 in such a manner so as to exclude both the hybrid owners as the largest stakeholder group (and the ones that will be expected to pay for it), and any proposals from them setting forth any alternative technology. Indeed, this resolution is perceived as heavily biased and is so unpopular among hybrid owners that is now referred to as the “Bell the Hybrids Act”.
A strong motivation for the purchase of my hybrid was the knowledge that it was helping the environment, saving energy and reducing pollution. I never considered for a moment that my decision would result in an actual increase in pollution levels, in this case, decibels. There is irony in all this -- with the very high probability of millions of hybrids on the highways and in the cities in the next few years, the first generation noise makers may not be loud enough, and we may need a louder version on ALL cars.
Respectfully yours,
R. F. Brooks
Aerospace Engineer...
… and proud owner of a Camry Hybrid.
… 44 MPG average to date, (20,000 miles).
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:14 PM
To: 'martin.zimmerman@latimes.com'
Subject: Blind pedestrians may not hear hybrid cars[/FONT]
Dear Mr. Zimmerman,
Your otherwise excellent article on blind pedestrians and their problems with hybrid cars neglected several important points.
The most important one is that alternative technologies already exist that would provide a solution for the blind as well as establish a platform for other types of warnings for individuals with limited or no sight. As an engineer in the aerospace industry I have long worked with transponders. Over the past twenty years these devices have gotten smaller and cheaper. They are now commonplace for applications as diverse as bridge tolls, parking building access, and even HOV lane access.
This technology, deployed as a global transmitter in the vehicle and a small receiver for the blind pedestrian could potentially be utilized to provide additional stereoscopic warnings in the future for traffic crossings, bicycles, electric scooters and a whole host of applications designed to overcome visual impairment. Insofar as cost, the transponder should cost no more that the proposed noise maker, and would be much more environmentally responsible. The receiver would also be low cost, and government assistance with its acquisition would be vastly preferable to further increasing the background noise level in our already noisy cities.
Unfortunately, the Congress, in its rush to provide a stop-gap and poorly thought out solution has orchestrated the hearing in respect of House Resolution 5734 in such a manner so as to exclude both the hybrid owners as the largest stakeholder group (and the ones that will be expected to pay for it), and any proposals from them setting forth any alternative technology. Indeed, this resolution is perceived as heavily biased and is so unpopular among hybrid owners that is now referred to as the “Bell the Hybrids Act”.
A strong motivation for the purchase of my hybrid was the knowledge that it was helping the environment, saving energy and reducing pollution. I never considered for a moment that my decision would result in an actual increase in pollution levels, in this case, decibels. There is irony in all this -- with the very high probability of millions of hybrids on the highways and in the cities in the next few years, the first generation noise makers may not be loud enough, and we may need a louder version on ALL cars.
Respectfully yours,
R. F. Brooks
Aerospace Engineer...
… and proud owner of a Camry Hybrid.
… 44 MPG average to date, (20,000 miles).
Last edited by FastMover; 06-24-2008 at 02:22 PM.
