Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
#21
07-20-2005, 08:23 PM
Re: Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
Thanks for the info.
Side note:
I almost bought a diesel last week! I need a boat puller and the new Jeep Libery comes with a really cool 2.8L direct injected turbo common rail diesel that puts out 163 horse and a whopping 295 ftlbs of torque.
The reason I didn't purchase is because the diesel does not use the same price structure as the gas Liberty's. The gas versions have employee pricing and $2000 rebates. The diesel is $2k more expensive to begin with and does not have employee pricing. Plus the diesel rebate is only $1k. All total that makes the diesel a $4k plus option. Between the high cost, newness and overheating issues I decided to wait. Also we are due for better fuel soon adding another reason to wait.
I loved how the Liberty diesel drove. It was great on the road. The diesel was a little clattery when the beast first fired up but after warming up it was pretty quiet and drove great. I'm getting more and more interested in diesels. Please join me in a new thread on diesel tech...
At: https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...7668#post17668
Side note:
I almost bought a diesel last week! I need a boat puller and the new Jeep Libery comes with a really cool 2.8L direct injected turbo common rail diesel that puts out 163 horse and a whopping 295 ftlbs of torque.
The reason I didn't purchase is because the diesel does not use the same price structure as the gas Liberty's. The gas versions have employee pricing and $2000 rebates. The diesel is $2k more expensive to begin with and does not have employee pricing. Plus the diesel rebate is only $1k. All total that makes the diesel a $4k plus option. Between the high cost, newness and overheating issues I decided to wait. Also we are due for better fuel soon adding another reason to wait.
I loved how the Liberty diesel drove. It was great on the road. The diesel was a little clattery when the beast first fired up but after warming up it was pretty quiet and drove great. I'm getting more and more interested in diesels. Please join me in a new thread on diesel tech...
At: https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...7668#post17668
Last edited by lakedude; 07-20-2005 at 08:30 PM.
#22
07-21-2005, 04:06 AM
Re: Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned algae-produced biodiesel yet - it's vastly more energy productive than land based crops!
Soy-beans can produce about 55 gallons of oil per acre per year and oil-seed rape about 100 gallons per year.
But that's nothing compared to algae - take the same acre in an algae growing pond and they can churn out up to 10,000 gallons of oil per year!
This was the amount a UNH group achieved while looking into the feasibility of making algae derived biodiesel (see here for details). They were planning to use the agricultural waste streams that flow into the Salton sea as the source of fertilizer.
However, since the government canned the funding of that project (dare I say it threatened the supremacy of the oil companies?), small startups have realised the potential of algae and are setting up enclosed ponds in sunny locations and are reporting very favourable progress. Some project that their algae derived biodiesel will be cheaper than crude in the near future.
Soy-beans can produce about 55 gallons of oil per acre per year and oil-seed rape about 100 gallons per year.
But that's nothing compared to algae - take the same acre in an algae growing pond and they can churn out up to 10,000 gallons of oil per year!
This was the amount a UNH group achieved while looking into the feasibility of making algae derived biodiesel (see here for details). They were planning to use the agricultural waste streams that flow into the Salton sea as the source of fertilizer.
However, since the government canned the funding of that project (dare I say it threatened the supremacy of the oil companies?), small startups have realised the potential of algae and are setting up enclosed ponds in sunny locations and are reporting very favourable progress. Some project that their algae derived biodiesel will be cheaper than crude in the near future.
#23
07-21-2005, 07:44 AM
Re: Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
I'm a big fan of the research and proposed ideas in regard to a large scale "algae to biodiesel projects," but don't feel confident to get into the politics of how alternative research dollars are doled out.
Here is a really well documented PDF that outlines the projections and comparisons. I 'debate' with Mike Briggs daily (of UNH group) and although he and I differ in politics and government involvement, we both would love to see advancement in Algae based Biodiesel alternative fuels. I'm confident that we'll see this entirely new "farming" in our future. Its excitingly promising both from an renewable fuel standpoint and an economic standpoint. (new industry and jobs)
That said ... its still future and not part of the 'for profit' business environment that in America we need to consider. The exponentially growing biodiesel industry is alive today because fuel prices are high and the US has strong agricultural industry. Using soy and canola is where US farmers and their associated supporters are banking. In my opinion that is just great .... let's keep the clean, renewable, domestic fuel moving moving and profitable for the businesses involve while other venture capitalist look to find better and more efficient crops and methods. (I suppose our tax dollars are going to be used ... yet I don't mind seeing private industry and investment driving R & D; would prefer the later WHEN it is possible.)
I hope the best technologies rise to the top, be they hybrid, hydrogen fuel cells or biofuels ... or a combination. Nevertheless, doing something today is better than waiting for something better tomorrow.
Here is a really well documented PDF that outlines the projections and comparisons. I 'debate' with Mike Briggs daily (of UNH group) and although he and I differ in politics and government involvement, we both would love to see advancement in Algae based Biodiesel alternative fuels. I'm confident that we'll see this entirely new "farming" in our future. Its excitingly promising both from an renewable fuel standpoint and an economic standpoint. (new industry and jobs)
That said ... its still future and not part of the 'for profit' business environment that in America we need to consider. The exponentially growing biodiesel industry is alive today because fuel prices are high and the US has strong agricultural industry. Using soy and canola is where US farmers and their associated supporters are banking. In my opinion that is just great .... let's keep the clean, renewable, domestic fuel moving moving and profitable for the businesses involve while other venture capitalist look to find better and more efficient crops and methods. (I suppose our tax dollars are going to be used ... yet I don't mind seeing private industry and investment driving R & D; would prefer the later WHEN it is possible.)
I hope the best technologies rise to the top, be they hybrid, hydrogen fuel cells or biofuels ... or a combination. Nevertheless, doing something today is better than waiting for something better tomorrow.
#24
07-21-2005, 08:13 AM
Re: Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
Hi RichC,
I take it you frequent the Biodieselnow forums then? Have you read any of Ecogenic's posts? He seems to be fairly bullish about the business potential of his system - claiming investors in black limos are pulling up to his facility with open cheque books all the time!
He in particular was saying that his "sun-oil" could undercut crude oil.
I take it you frequent the Biodieselnow forums then? Have you read any of Ecogenic's posts? He seems to be fairly bullish about the business potential of his system - claiming investors in black limos are pulling up to his facility with open cheque books all the time!
He in particular was saying that his "sun-oil" could undercut crude oil.
#25
07-31-2005, 08:22 PM
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Re: Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
There may be some monetary value in soy meal, however I don't see how that can be included in the bio-diesel energy calculation since it isn't part of the product. If it's composted and used as fertilizer to reduce the input of chemical fertilizer to grow more soy, then that should be calculated, but that would have to be documented specifically, and if it were I don't see why they would ignore that factor since the amount of chemical fertilizer would be reduced, therefore it's included automatically in the cycle. If the energy content of the plant doesn't end up in the fuel, then it shouldn't be calculated as being part of the final product. If it's burned to heat the vats in the process, then it can be calculated, although the pollution caused by it's combustion should be noted as being part of the whole process too.
The problem with using soy is not so much the growing of it, as much as the processing of it. Extracting oil from soy beans is a mechanically intensive process that requires a lot of energy. The grinding and pressing machines are not running on wind or solar, yet...
There's a lot of room for improvement in the whole bio-fuels process, and I think that's what these studies should be highlighting rather than simply condenming the process completely. Organic farming uses far less petrochemical energy, and there are plants that produce much easier to extract oil than soy. But the real problem is scale. We are consuming so much oil (and the amount is still growing exponentially) that if it were to be replaced with bio-fuels we would need to have all the available farm land used to grow the fuel crops, never mind food crops. It's good to diversify in the fuel sector, I don't think any single source of energy is suitable for everything, as we are discovering with oil it's not good to put all the eggs in one basket, so it's good that r&d is being put into these processes, but I don't think it's wise to base the whole economy on it, but it makes an excellent transition tool as we move to more renewable energy.
The problem with using soy is not so much the growing of it, as much as the processing of it. Extracting oil from soy beans is a mechanically intensive process that requires a lot of energy. The grinding and pressing machines are not running on wind or solar, yet...
There's a lot of room for improvement in the whole bio-fuels process, and I think that's what these studies should be highlighting rather than simply condenming the process completely. Organic farming uses far less petrochemical energy, and there are plants that produce much easier to extract oil than soy. But the real problem is scale. We are consuming so much oil (and the amount is still growing exponentially) that if it were to be replaced with bio-fuels we would need to have all the available farm land used to grow the fuel crops, never mind food crops. It's good to diversify in the fuel sector, I don't think any single source of energy is suitable for everything, as we are discovering with oil it's not good to put all the eggs in one basket, so it's good that r&d is being put into these processes, but I don't think it's wise to base the whole economy on it, but it makes an excellent transition tool as we move to more renewable energy.
What I don't understand myself is how it "costs" more energy to produce ethanol/methanol that the product yields. Since bacteria produce the alcohol from sugars and fibers, the only energy expended is in the separation process. Since the separation can be done using a solar still, there should be no fossil fuel energy needed to produce alcohol. Again the resulting "meal" can be composted for fertilizer. So why do we need to add fossil fuels to the manufacturing?
#26
08-03-2005, 06:57 PM
Re: Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.
Hi All:
___I think the question do “Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.” is answered best by the following:
The Next Petroleum
___Although I cannot stand Ethanol in my fuel today as it reduces my overall FE, if Ethanol can be purchased for $25.00 per on the open market, that means ~ 1.10 per gallon at the pump. I can deal with 20% less FE if my actual fuel costs < ˝ of what I am paying now! Read the rest of the story on how we will all be fleeced with the BS situation in the US. The powers that be can produce more Ethanol from what most would call garbage Switchgrass here in the states then Corn but the Farm lobby (not the farmers themselves mind you but ADM and Cargill) will not have anything to do with that now, will they 
___Peak Oil is solved with a little help from Mother Nature. Now all we have to do is let Ethanol in like we do crude. Would you rather give our trillion’s in petrol $’s to Venezuela and the rest of OPEC for a non-renewable GHG emitting mess or just 60% as much to Brazil for a far less GHG intensive and renewable fuel? Ticks me off just thinking about it!
___I picked this story up off of EVWorld.com if that matter to most folks.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___I think the question do “Biofuels provide less energy than their production requires.” is answered best by the following:
The Next Petroleum
Super-efficient Brazil now sells ethanol at the equivalent of $25 dollars a barrel, less than half the cost of crude. What's more, because parts of the sugar-cane plant are used both to fertilize the fields and to fire up the distilleries, Brazil uses much less fossil fuel to produce alcohol than Europe and America.
___Peak Oil is solved with a little help from Mother Nature. Now all we have to do is let Ethanol in like we do crude. Would you rather give our trillion’s in petrol $’s to Venezuela and the rest of OPEC for a non-renewable GHG emitting mess or just 60% as much to Brazil for a far less GHG intensive and renewable fuel? Ticks me off just thinking about it!
___I picked this story up off of EVWorld.com if that matter to most folks.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
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