Bulldog,
What are you looking for here? I never implied that the cars referenced were bigger than a Prius or that they were ideal for the US market.

My point was real simple. If the Prius didn't exist. What would diesel automakers set as their emissions goals? Some arbitrary CO/CO2/NOx numbers like some states dictate in the US. Instead the Prius is the definitive standard. Pretty good for a car that only sold 32,200 in Europe for 2007 or .16% of the european market. As I stated earlier the european market purchased 10 million diesels last year and Toyota is struggling to increase production past 1 million hybrids worldwide. So it's likely that 10 million more diesels will be bought this year in europe and the number of Priuses available will likely stay the same (due to supply).

BTW, another bright note for US Prius owners.
Toyota Prius T3 in UK - £17,777 or $34,834K (US)

and FWIW
Polo Bluemotion w/AC - £13,535 or $26,521 (US)

 

Actually the diesels would aim to meet the arbitary EU standards set by the EU when sold in Europe or the arbitary EPA standards when sold in the US.

My point is that the press, especially euro mags, love to try and put hybrid technology down. That is why they pull these arbitary comparisons out, while completely neglecting to paint a complete picture.

BTW: If you live in a large metropolitan city the arbitary emissions specs set by some states made a huge difference. Ask folks that lived in LA for 30+ years. The air is much better (far from good still) with many more vehicles on the road today. If it wasn't for these types of regulations we would most likely still have leaded fuel as an example. I have also noticed how the air quality have gone to hell in countries where they don't care about those arbitary emission standards.

[/rant off]

 

What's interesting is that despite favorable taxation on diesel fuel and diesel vehicles and lax emissions standards, there are still a lot of gasoline cars in Europe. I wonder why all those incentives haven't resulted in a vast majority of diesel vehicles.

 

Can you provide reference for "favorable taxation on diesel fuel and diesel vehicles". I couldn't find this info, but that would explain the graph below. The current higher price of diesel over un-lead since September 2004 in the US is due to the increase in worldwide diesel demand, factors related to the transition to low-sulfur diesel and the $.06 higher federal excise tax. The lax emission standards for diesels in europe is comparable to how the US excluded SUVs and Trucks from CAFE and CAA.


http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/st...el%2090-07.pdf

 

All car mag comparisons are arbitrary. How many times have Ferraris and Porsches been put down as overpriced compared to Corvettes and Mustangs. And since there are no european brand hybrids in production, they will pick on hybrids, especially the Prius.

Good point about the effect of emission standards on LA. Being an east-coast-er, I was always bothered by CA unique emissions requirements. But in hindsight it was definitely needed.

 

This is an interesting read. I think that diesel's popularity will decrease in Europe when the taxation starts to level with gas.
http://www.neurope.eu/articles/84192.php

There are a number of other interesting articles on the topic. Point is that most European countries taxed diesel less than petrol, which increased it's popularity. Will be interesting to see as the taxation levels out how diesels prices and diesel vehicle purchases change.

What will also be interesting to see state side is the popularity of the new diesels in the US and how that would affect diesel and gas prices. If fuel prices stay sky high they will definitely be very popular vehicles (unless unreasonably priced). Since the US has very few diesel consumer cars, it will be easy and very quick to change the consumer usage pattern of diesel (with obvious impact on fuel prices).

Guess time will tell.

 

http://online.wsj.com/public/article...f_main_tff_top

"A main reason Europeans buy smaller, diesel-powered vehicles is that fuel taxes are heavier on gasoline than diesel, and diesel vehicles enjoy other tax breaks. In the U.S., diesel fuel has at times cost more than gasoline. Add stern clean-air regulations, and diesels claim less than a 1% market share in the U.S., according to Ward's Automotive Group."

So the question is, despite all the incentives to get a diesel, why are 47% of the vehicles in Europe still gaosline?

 

US diesels (planned also) are never the smallest engine in the group so economy suffers. That is the primary reason why they lose so much MPG when crossing the atlantic. Not hard to make a high mpg car - small diesel and small car. The problem in the US is that we are fat - need big car, lazy - need automatic, pampered - need a/c, racer - need big engine. But without insulting us - we had cheap fuel - why not a fast, comfortable, cool, roomy car. The market will take awhile to change and VW or whomever is not going to gamble millions on the cheap small slow car market in the US.

Also - emissions controls in the US add substantial cost to a diesel (and weight?) so it is harder to justify a $18,000 tiny slow car.

 

Thanks for the links! That explains why the EIA shows European demand for diesel fuel growing out to 2015. Eliminating the 0.02-0.05 Euro/liter advantage in taxes would even the price for the two fuels.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...llate2005.html

The 47% gasoline driven cars can be explained by the publics slow acceptance to change. The basic diesel engines offered in europe are no different than the smelly black smoke emitting cars most Americans associate with diesel. Several of those engines are offered with DPF (particulate filter) eliminating the black sooty exhaust and and even smaller number offer the "green" diesels I quoted. The Prius has been around for 10 years and these greener diesels are just now becoming available. The Prius' history defines it as the FE and emission standard which is analogous to how Ferrari's and Porsche's history allow them to set the performance standard.

Don't forget that when gas prices in the US dropped in late 2006, the growth in hybrid sales dropped to 2000 levels. Even Toyota was offering incentives on their Hybrid flagship Prius in early 2007 as they began to stack up at dealers. I am sure if John Q Public knew that gas prices would increase 50% in the first 6 months of 2007 or today be double the low $2.13 /g price, the sales growth would have never dipped.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...rid_sales.html

300TTto545 makes a good point. The current base engines for the VW lineup in the US is a 2.0L Turbo and 2.5L 5-cyl. The hot non-diesel item for European VW is the 1.4L FSI Turbo. Imagine a US VW salesman trying to convince someone to buy a Tiguan with a 1.4L over a 2.4L CRV or RAV4, even though all three engines have similar hp (168, 166 and 166 respectively). But, I still remember people trading in their big V-8 Mustangs, etc for really slow B-210s, Corolla and Rabbits in the 70s. And first hand experience with a friends 1980 Diesel Rabbit that got an honest 50 MPG. Of course that Rabbit was small (2100 lbs), slow (50 hp!!!) and had a trail of black sooty diesel smoke behind it