Disgusted RX400h owner
#41
11-03-2007, 08:27 PM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
nadabunka,
I'm surprised that you expected to get the city EPA numbers.Very, very few cars get the old city EPA numbers in an actual city with an "average" driver.
Your 25 mpg is about average for the not average drivers on this forum.Did you buy before there was much data here on the HH? I'm not trying to kick you when you are down;I'm just curious why you would expect to get EPA city numbers with the HH when it was well know that very few cars do,and on this forum the Prius was only getting about 47mpg in mixed driving.Once again,this forum has very few average drivers.Most"average" folks don't get 47mpg mixed with the Prius.
I agree that Toyota and all the other car companies "game" the EPA test to get the best EPA numbers possible.In that sense they are deceptive, but once again it is well know that the car companies "game" the tests.
You're obviously a bright guy. How did you miss the obvious? The Prius numbers should have been enough to convince you that the HH wasn't going to get city EPA numbers(it gets maybe 70% with an average driver).It also doesn't get better city mpg than hy-about 5mpg differences for us(43 vs 49(68mph).I took one look at the HH's numbers here on the forum,and then bought the Prius.The HH just wasn't enough better than our AWD Pilot, or than a V-6 Highlander,Lexus whatever.I guessed it would be no better than 5 mpg "better" than the non hybrid versions,and that was generous.
I'm guessing you were an early buyer,and you hadn't spent a lot of time here eyeballing the Prius numbers.You must not have seen the numerous complaints/rips that were written in several Newspapers/online sites etc.
The HH and Lex are great very quick SUVs and they will pay off on their $4000 preminum the way oil prices are increasing, but it will take >100,000 miles to save the 1000 gallons of gas($4/gal). You should save about 100 gallons per 10,000 miles-at 20 vs 25mpg-.You'll break even around 100,000-120,000 and you'll have had a better(faster/greener) car the whole time.Could be worse.
Luck,
Charlie
Suburb of New Orleans-strictly short trips-stoplight to stoplight with maybe 6 complete stops 90 degree turns per mile.
I'm surprised that you expected to get the city EPA numbers.Very, very few cars get the old city EPA numbers in an actual city with an "average" driver.
Your 25 mpg is about average for the not average drivers on this forum.Did you buy before there was much data here on the HH? I'm not trying to kick you when you are down;I'm just curious why you would expect to get EPA city numbers with the HH when it was well know that very few cars do,and on this forum the Prius was only getting about 47mpg in mixed driving.Once again,this forum has very few average drivers.Most"average" folks don't get 47mpg mixed with the Prius.
I agree that Toyota and all the other car companies "game" the EPA test to get the best EPA numbers possible.In that sense they are deceptive, but once again it is well know that the car companies "game" the tests.
You're obviously a bright guy. How did you miss the obvious? The Prius numbers should have been enough to convince you that the HH wasn't going to get city EPA numbers(it gets maybe 70% with an average driver).It also doesn't get better city mpg than hy-about 5mpg differences for us(43 vs 49(68mph).I took one look at the HH's numbers here on the forum,and then bought the Prius.The HH just wasn't enough better than our AWD Pilot, or than a V-6 Highlander,Lexus whatever.I guessed it would be no better than 5 mpg "better" than the non hybrid versions,and that was generous.
I'm guessing you were an early buyer,and you hadn't spent a lot of time here eyeballing the Prius numbers.You must not have seen the numerous complaints/rips that were written in several Newspapers/online sites etc.
The HH and Lex are great very quick SUVs and they will pay off on their $4000 preminum the way oil prices are increasing, but it will take >100,000 miles to save the 1000 gallons of gas($4/gal). You should save about 100 gallons per 10,000 miles-at 20 vs 25mpg-.You'll break even around 100,000-120,000 and you'll have had a better(faster/greener) car the whole time.Could be worse.
Luck,
Charlie
Suburb of New Orleans-strictly short trips-stoplight to stoplight with maybe 6 complete stops 90 degree turns per mile.
Also for those who claim the high MPG that live in higher altitudes with terrain that is favorable...I too got the opportunity to drive in a similar area, this Blue Ridge Parkway. Spent a day on those roads and WAS able to re-create the 40MPG "averages" over an extended period (3-4 hours). I even took a picture of my NAVI screen (jus tlike Mr. Kites) and it too shows 40.3MPG with big chunks of time (10-15 minutes) with over 60+MPG (on the screen). Of course, this was done driving 35 in certain areas and lots of hills. They TRULY DO make a VERY big difference. However, for most of us who do not live in such areas, such FE is not realistic. However, I was able to see "Mr. Kite's point of view". Good for him but it's not (by ANY means) a TYPICAL experience.
#42
11-05-2007, 11:35 AM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
EVERY other prior vehicle we have EVER bought we have been fortunate enough to easily exceed the posted EPA readings (maybe we've always driven more conservatively than most) so we didn't think it was unrealistic to have expected (at least) within 10%-20% of the ADVERTISED (at the time) ratings. Needless to say, 24MPG on a vehicle that advertised 31MPG (City) was...um, startling. After an ECU re-programming, proper oil and oil levels, etc the truck is now getting between 27 and 28MPG which is ...acceptable.
20% of 31 mpg = 6.2 mpg
10% of 31 mpg = 3.1 mpg
So if you would get between 24.8 and 27.9 mpg you feel that would be a reasonable expectation.
Isn't that pretty close to what you are getting on this vehicle before and after the changes. You have narrowed you deviation from 20% to 10% with some vehicle changes, but in either case you have meet your self-defined realistic expectation haven't you?
What am I missing.
#43
11-06-2007, 10:43 AM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
ndabunka,
Yes,altitude is a real blessing in modern vehicles.In the old days-before EFI-mass air sensors O2 sensors-with a carb jetted for sea level-the mpg and power would just plunge at altitude.
I figured you must have been too early to have heard the "worst news" about the HH. They have kinda been a flop in the market because they just don't live up to the Prius.You'll make payback in about 100,000 miles(especially with the $4 gas staring us in the face), but it isn't the dramatic improvement over its ICE rivals like the Prius vs Corolla.(about 70% better mpg city in "real life" and 40% better hy.)
We drive from sea level to 7000 ft-New Orleans-Flagstaff AZ-fairly frequently-and once we get above 2000 feet(Amarillo)ect improved mpg;above 4000 ft it is worth about 5-10% in high speed driving-70-75 mph.
I drove almost the same trip-NO to Denver-several times in the 60's 70's-and the mpg would just drop off as I gained altitude.
Yes,Toyota does game the EPA tests at least as well-probably better-than most manufacturers- 31 mpg city would have been awfully nice.
f Toyota builds the stretched Prius that I've heard they plan(maybe 185" long like an HH), it would be good for an honest 40 mpg city,and maybe 45mpg hy(if they increase the frontal area about 10% with 4"more length,and maybe 3" more height). The Prius is just a bit too small to use as a family road trip vehicle. The HHs are just about the perfect size for traveling; a modified Prius 4 cyl could fill the bill just about perfectly.You would have to give up ground clearance, but little else.
Thanks,
Charlie
Yes,altitude is a real blessing in modern vehicles.In the old days-before EFI-mass air sensors O2 sensors-with a carb jetted for sea level-the mpg and power would just plunge at altitude.
I figured you must have been too early to have heard the "worst news" about the HH. They have kinda been a flop in the market because they just don't live up to the Prius.You'll make payback in about 100,000 miles(especially with the $4 gas staring us in the face), but it isn't the dramatic improvement over its ICE rivals like the Prius vs Corolla.(about 70% better mpg city in "real life" and 40% better hy.)
We drive from sea level to 7000 ft-New Orleans-Flagstaff AZ-fairly frequently-and once we get above 2000 feet(Amarillo)ect improved mpg;above 4000 ft it is worth about 5-10% in high speed driving-70-75 mph.
I drove almost the same trip-NO to Denver-several times in the 60's 70's-and the mpg would just drop off as I gained altitude.
Yes,Toyota does game the EPA tests at least as well-probably better-than most manufacturers- 31 mpg city would have been awfully nice.
f Toyota builds the stretched Prius that I've heard they plan(maybe 185" long like an HH), it would be good for an honest 40 mpg city,and maybe 45mpg hy(if they increase the frontal area about 10% with 4"more length,and maybe 3" more height). The Prius is just a bit too small to use as a family road trip vehicle. The HHs are just about the perfect size for traveling; a modified Prius 4 cyl could fill the bill just about perfectly.You would have to give up ground clearance, but little else.
Thanks,
Charlie
#44
11-06-2007, 09:38 PM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
I am confused by your statement. You state that don't think it is unrealistic to expect (at least) within 10 to 20% of the EPA numbers of 31 mpg city. That is exactly what you got though and you are complaining.
20% of 31 mpg = 6.2 mpg
10% of 31 mpg = 3.1 mpg
So if you would get between 24.8 and 27.9 mpg you feel that would be a reasonable expectation.
Isn't that pretty close to what you are getting on this vehicle before and after the changes. You have narrowed you deviation from 20% to 10% with some vehicle changes, but in either case you have meet your self-defined realistic expectation haven't you?
What am I missing.
20% of 31 mpg = 6.2 mpg
10% of 31 mpg = 3.1 mpg
So if you would get between 24.8 and 27.9 mpg you feel that would be a reasonable expectation.
Isn't that pretty close to what you are getting on this vehicle before and after the changes. You have narrowed you deviation from 20% to 10% with some vehicle changes, but in either case you have meet your self-defined realistic expectation haven't you?
What am I missing.
#45
11-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Active Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Arlington Heights, IL (Chicagoland)
Posts: 244
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
If you use renewable energy sources, yes hydrogen will be pretty clean.
(water vapor can be an environmental issue - do a little research on airplane contrails...)
But as stands, hydrogen currently and likely will come from the breaking down of hydrocarbons. Which is just another way of burning a barrel of oil.
I 100% agree on the memory seats. The old HiHy was way too spartan for the price. No SmartKey, or Bluetooth either...
#46
11-08-2007, 07:18 PM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
Depends on where the hydrogen comes from.
If you use renewable energy sources, yes hydrogen will be pretty clean.
(water vapor can be an environmental issue - do a little research on airplane contrails...)
But as stands, hydrogen currently and likely will come from the breaking down of hydrocarbons. Which is just another way of burning a barrel of oil.
I 100% agree on the memory seats. The old HiHy was way too spartan for the price. No SmartKey, or Bluetooth either...
If you use renewable energy sources, yes hydrogen will be pretty clean.
(water vapor can be an environmental issue - do a little research on airplane contrails...)
But as stands, hydrogen currently and likely will come from the breaking down of hydrocarbons. Which is just another way of burning a barrel of oil.
I 100% agree on the memory seats. The old HiHy was way too spartan for the price. No SmartKey, or Bluetooth either...
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/...4a5c627b8fe42d
#47
11-09-2007, 09:15 AM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
In the sky, the issue is essentially the artificial formation of clouds. Is water vapor an issue when released at ground level?
#48
11-09-2007, 10:41 AM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
Water vapor is already a large component of vehicle exhaust. Releasing water vapor several miles above the ground is a lot different than releasing water on ground level.
In the sky, the issue is essentially the artificial formation of clouds. Is water vapor an issue when released at ground level?
In the sky, the issue is essentially the artificial formation of clouds. Is water vapor an issue when released at ground level?
#49
11-09-2007, 10:59 AM
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
Since water vapor is already a significant component of vehicle exhaust and I've never heard of this being an issue, I'm guessing it will not be an issue with hydrogen powered vehicles either.
#50
11-09-2007, 04:28 PM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ppls Rep. of Boulder
Posts: 480
Re: Disgusted RX400h owner
