Seriously Wayne, that's not a bad idea for your second career. Open a "Hypermiler School" and train people to conserve gas. You could start a nationwide trend of copycatters.

 

Wayne has an excellent point about the speed limit. I completely agree that we should lower the speed limits and enforce them. Can you give us more insight as to why there is resistance to the idea? I'm assuming it's politically unpopular? Well, assuming that's the case and politicians are unwilling to act because they're worried about upsetting their constituency, then why not support another method of reducing greenhouse gas emissions even though they are possibly less effective? We have to deal with the reality of politics and do the best that we can and if the only politically feasible route is through this type of regulation, why not support it? These regulations will reduce emissions by 30% for new cars in 2016. Certainly, by 2030 or so most cars on the road would then emit on average that amount less. Wouldn't this regulation be as effective as slowing down exept that it would take about 30 years to take effect? It would be fantastic to have both, and slowing down would be an immediate 20% or so reduction in emissions rather than only after 3 decades, but if we can't have both, why not support at least the one option? Does it have to be all or nothing?

 

Hi Llin123:

___Neither the members of CARB nor the members of the UCS are politically elected in any form from my understanding. There is no reason to distort the truth although I have seen the UCS pull similar stunts in the past. Emissions levies and mandates can go above and beyond politics as the popularity of hybrids in California show. All that needs to be done is to take the next step. If the Governator and California legislature wants to take the Auto manufacturers to task, then they had best hold the entire population of California to this new found bar as well. Are they actually trying to save the Californian’s living standards while at the same time attempting to save the planet or are they simply playing games? It is pretty simple. A governor speech on the 4 major networks during prime time … Topic: The real FE and GHG emissions of the vehicles Californian’s drive today vs. the sometimes lofty FE that some apparently believe they receive … You know who they all are A proposition afterwards with Californian’s either digging all of our graves or acting like good global citizens.

___If instead the California state legislature decides to attempt to enforce their GHG mandate (new CAFE) without going after the source (actual real world FE vs. the EPA’s due to excessive speeds) in immediate terms, they will get trounced in the courts due to the realities they themselves are failing to face.

___Again, if California lowered their rural speed limits to 60 - 65 mph, their urban areas to 55 mph, and enforced them to within 7 - 10 mph, I would be all for the new GHG mandate. As it stands however, give the average Californian a new car with an EPA 30 mpg vs. 27.5 that has ABS, Brake Assist, Stability Assist, Traction Control, Side Curtains, AWD w/ Super Handling, higher skid pad numbers, lower CG’s, lower Cd’s, and possibly more power, etc. that same citizenry will step it up another notch where 75 - 80 mph in the far right lanes might be the new minimums and thus nothing was gained on the GHG emissions front. This 30 mpg per the GHG mandate will be abused by the average Californian even further then the average 27.5 mpg automobile is abused today. The reason why? The soon to be std. much improved safety HW and handling capabilities of the automobiles we will all possess in the very near future will be driven at higher speeds and closer to its limits irregardless of what the EPA or CARB rating is. At least they will be in California imho.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

In resistance of the public to drive ~55MPH.... I can only speak of my own experience.

Around the time I began driving it went from 75 down to 55.
I was so upset.
Must have been a secret round table deal with the Arabs and politicians, somehow someone must be lining their pockets while we drive in misery.

I figured 75-85 burned slightly more fuel but I got there alot faster and it all evened out. Probably came out ahead. There's not much I can do to improve my MPG. It does what it does and that's all.
I think most people believe that myth.
I belived it until I bought my HCH, where I got a good education from the Insight hypermilers (Thanks Wayne) and my own experience with it.

I think education is the key....how it might be delivered efffectively to the dumb masses I'm not sure.

 

I'm curious which stunts UCS has tried to pull in the past. Do you think that this current position is a stunt as well? I'm genuinely curious as I'm not aware of the history of UCS.

Does the Highway Patrol tend to look the other way if they catch a car going 10mph or more over the limit? Do you think fines need to be increased? What kind of changes do you advocate in terms of enforcement?

Given that newer vehicles will be driven faster (although I'm not totally sure that people will drive their new cars that much faster) we know that fuel efficiency will drop. But why should we not push this law regardless of what the speed limits are? Whether the speed limits are lower or higher, emissions will be lower with the regulations than without it. Even though CARB should do more and even though we should take additional action, why not promote this as one of many steps that need to be taken?

 

Hi Llin123:

I'm curious which stunts UCS has tried to pull in the past.

___It had something to do with the UCS picking up and posting a report as their own when it was a secretary copying and pasting from a much lesser recognized organization IIRC? I thought it might have something to do with Nuclear energy or Nuclear waste disposal but I could not find it tonight.

Do you think that this current position is a stunt as well?

___I think my previous posts speak volumes as to what all these really bright people lack in terms of simple common sense.

Does the Highway Patrol tend to look the other way if they catch a car going 10mph or more over the limit? Do you think fines need to be increased? What kind of changes do you advocate in terms of enforcement?

___Let me lead you to an interesting and very active recent thread in another forum I participate at called Temple of VTEC. Afterwards, you tell me given the discussion by and from any number of Californian’s participating in the following entitled “If you live in California...”

Given that newer vehicles will be driven faster (although I'm not totally sure that people will drive their new cars that much faster) we know that fuel efficiency will drop. But why should we not push this law regardless of what the speed limits are? Whether the speed limits are lower or higher, emissions will be lower with the regulations than without it. Even though CARB should do more and even though we should take additional action, why not promote this as one of many steps that need to be taken?

___Because you cannot guarantee that increasing CAFE/reducing GHG’s via a higher FE mandate will actually result in lower GHG’s produced in California for all the reasons posted previously. I don’t know what kind of car(s) you drive, what kind of fuel economy you receive, or where you live but I can give you a guaranteed 30 - 40% reduction in GHG’s just by following this dumb old boy’s simple driving style and setup. This is in contrast to all the smartest scientists in the world producing 3 - 5 mpg improvements in EPA results/CAFE standards via some future technology that may not even produce the results expected.

___Here is a prime example … Did you know it took over 1,000,000 man hours of some of the best minds at Ford to create the Escape HEV w/ its 36/31 city/highway EPA city/highway estimates. Do you know it takes about 2 man hours for the average Joe to take a Ranger P/U with a very similar 2.3 L ICE (more powerful, less fuel efficient, higher Cd) and literally destroy what most any other driver has achieved in a Ford Escape Hybrid to date? Did you know it took a 45 minute test drive to prove that a non-hybrid I4 based Accord w/ Auto could average approximately TWICE the FE of all the AH pilots posting tank over tank to date? How many man hours were burned up on the design of the AH by some of the best minds at Honda?

___I know my methods work as I prove it to myself day after day, tank after tank. This is done in vehicles as diverse as the gas sipping hybrid Honda Insight to the epitome of today’s American culture, an Acura MDX SUV. Until the rest of the driving public gets it, most are grasping at straws if they think slightly higher mandates will save the environment or their living standards if in fact human activity and the resultant CO2 emissions are heating up our planet on the order of .7 - 1.5 degrees/century.

___My overall solution? Let’s start out with the truth first, practical and low cost solutions second, and then pile on with the advancements in technology for technology’s sake afterwards. Trying to pull the technology card first is putting the cart before the horse and as has been shown in the past, you might not get to where you were headed as has been explained previously.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

Interesting. Was there evidence that it was purposeful deceit rather than an accident or oversight?

I'd be very interested in your techniques. I drive a 2004 Prius and am aware of some basic techniques to increase fuel efficiency such as keeping my speed down, accelerating briskly (but not too briskly) up to speed and coasting as much as possible, and braking as little as possible. I generally get a minimum of 50 mpg after the engine is warm. Other tips would be appreciated.

I'll certainly grant that the regulations will only be a small part of the solution. Having said that, the first point is that the regulations are based only on existing technologies already in cars on the road. So this isn't about asking the auto industry to come up with anything new. The regulations are based on your second step- the practical low cost solutions.

Secondly, I think I'm missing the point here. Given the same bad driver and two cars, one of which emits 30% less greenhouse gases by regulation - even if the driver drives in an inappropriate way, the total emissions of greenhouse gases will still be less for the car that meets the regulations, right? It might not be 30% less, but less nonetheless. I mean, if we plot greenhouse gas emissions with two different scenarios - one with the regulations and one without - and with everything else held equal, emissions would have to go down. Since about half of our greenhouse gas emissions come from transportation, a 27% reduction in total emissions by 2030 (CARB's numbers, which you might take issue with) is a small but not insignificant dent into the problem. If you could explain again, that would be great. Thanks for the clarifications.

 

Hi Llin123:

Interesting. Was there evidence that it was purposeful deceit rather than an accident or oversight?

___I do not remember any more then what I have posted. I wish I did but I checked all of my previous posts in any number of forums on UCS, Nuclear, Copy, Secretary, and Waste as well as google on the same and did not come across the original text.

I'd be very interested in your techniques. I drive a 2004 Prius and am aware of some basic techniques to increase fuel efficiency such as keeping my speed down, accelerating briskly (but not too briskly) up to speed and coasting as much as possible, and braking as little as possible. I generally get a minimum of 50 mpg after the engine is warm. Other tips would be appreciated.

___Woohhh, you generally get a minimum of 50 mpg after its warm? I don’t even like to hear the terms I generally get, I think I receive, I usually beat EPA estimates, etc. This is classic double speak for those that do not know. You either know or at least you will know in the future so hone it down to actuals, not > after its warm or other such terms. What are you actually receiving day over day, trip over trip, and tank over tank? Without knowing this, you really have no way to improve. Accelerating briskly is a poor technique no matter which power source you are using. High accelerations in either the positive or negative are in fact a key component of the largest losses. In terms of the Prius II’s hypermile capabilities, it is a unique animal. In 32 degrees F from dead cold, I only achieved 54.x mpg in one over a 6 - 7 mile around town distance. With that, The Prius II is the toughest automobile to hypermile except while cruising along at 30 - 35 mph of any I have ever driven. At 50 mpg, you are doing very well but again, let’s hear of your actuals from the time you boot her up to the time you refuel her again. You might be within 15 - 20% of your max capability but most are only receiving 44 - 45 in their Prius II’s. These Prius II’s can be improved by 30 + % with a bit more careful driving style, technique, and setup.

I'll certainly grant that the regulations will only be a small part of the solution. Having said that, the first point is that the regulations are based only on existing technologies already in cars on the road. So this isn't about asking the auto industry to come up with anything new. The regulations are based on your second step- the practical low cost solutions.

___Yes, first, slow our darn machines down somewhat. Once you have the RPM’s down to minimal levels, you have reduced waste heat to minimums while still maintaining enough power for mobility. Aero-drag is reduced as well but it is a 2 part question, not just one like most think … Have you ever read any diesel truck forums and the type of FE they receive when cruising down the highway? They lose similar percentages of FE at higher speeds as those of us driving regular SI-ICE’s (Spark Injected-Internal Combustion Engines) and Hybrid’s. Now how could a 6.0 L International PowerStroke diesel in a Ford F350 have just 2/3 of the FE at 75 as it does at 55 - 60? That thing has so much spare torque and HP it could pull tons at any speed yet the small increase in aero drag over the 15 - 20 mph increase can kill its FE just like it does ours? It is the RPM and gearing, not the aero-drag that kills them and the same can be deduced with our hybrids and non-hybrid’s alike. I don’t have time to look it up but I believe it was the NREL that did some testing a few months back on the Prius II’s drivetrain. As RPM’s increased, heat losses increased tremendously and they had details on more then just the Prius II’s CVT itself. It was actually quite interesting to see and thus, both RPM’s and Aero drag have to be reduced by traveling at slower speeds. We simply have to stop our smallish ICE’s from rubbing their internal components into a heat loss frenzy to achieve our maximums.

Secondly, I think I'm missing the point here. Given the same bad driver and two cars, one of which emits 30% less greenhouse gases by regulation - even if the driver drives in an inappropriate way, the total emissions of greenhouse gases will still be less for the car that meets the regulations, right? It might not be 30% less, but less nonetheless. I mean, if we plot greenhouse gas emissions with two different scenarios - one with the regulations and one without - and with everything else held equal, emissions would have to go down. Since about half of our greenhouse gas emissions come from transportation, a 27% reduction in total emissions by 2030 (CARB's numbers, which you might take issue with) is a small but not insignificant dent into the problem. If you could explain again, that would be great. Thanks for the clarifications

___To many different directions but first, most are receiving far below EPA estimates because they don’t know any better. There are many of us here that qualify as hypermilers and no matter the traffic, temperatures, or congestion, hypermileage is going to result because we will not to accept less. Here is a link showing some of the actual FE’s achieved in automobiles of many types in a city/highway/150 mile trip/and combined setup done by Consumer Reports.

Most fuel-efficient vehicles by category

I want you to take special notice of the Honda Insight 5-speed since that is a vehicle I am intimately familiar with. Its city rating was just 36 mpg? I am not sure of the temperatures, but my best 3 mile segment from cold was 103 mpg running my son to a school practice last summer. This segment consists of maybe 15 stop lights and at least 3 stop signs that I can think of running through a rather densely packed suburb of Chicago with all the traffic you can imagine. I think my worst 3 mile segment last summer was in the high 80’s IIRC. Do you see what I am getting at. We (hypermilers) use the game gauges (Instantaneous Fuel Consumption Displays) to maximize our FE in all conditions. Once you have the techniques figured out, you can transfer said skill to your non-hybrid – non-game gauged equipped automobiles and your set for life. The general public hasn’t a clue and just look at some of the abysmal city figures Consumer Reports recorded. I4 based Accord’s hitting 16 mpg, Prius II’s at 35 mpg, Acura MDX’s at 11 mpg … These are numbers the average driver actually receives. Fortunately, most highway driving in better then the EPA’s listed to help compensate but even that, Honda Insight at just 66 mpg? Maybe in a snowstorm with a headwind for a segment but not a tank if I can at all help it.

___Anyways, sure, place a guy in a Prius II averaging 45 mpg and another in a Corolla receiving just 30 and you have a much lower increase in GHG emissions from the Prius II. The part missed however is that Hybrid owners on average make ~ $100,000 per year thus have a bit more leeway when it comes to choosing automobiles. Do you think the guy making $42K/year and supporting a family of 4 is going to be able to afford a Prius II? He’d be lucky if he could afford the stripped Corolla. The guy with the Corolla can run it into Prius like FE as I did over the past 2 years myself. If GHG emissions are the planet killer as both CARB and UCS state and both are concerned for Californian’s standard of living, why piece meal it when lowered speed limits and enforcement will do the job right now. As long as traffic congestion wasn’t increased in a fashion negating the lowered limits anyway.

___I am writing this post in a bit of a non-sensical fashion given the hour and I have not yet had any sleep so forgive me if I have added more confusion.

___Finally, what do you do for a living? Both your knowledge and questions are deep enough that it sounds like your might be fishing for background for publication?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

Thanks for the in-depth responses. I'll try to comment below.

So I've owned my Prius for 6 months now and have only driven it less than 2500 miles. My trips are almost exclusively 10-15 minute trips, probably about half freeway, half around town. I don't drive it to work. My lowest mpg for a tank was 40 mpg and the highest was 45mpg - that one probably had more like 3/4 highway. The first five minutes usually shows 25-35 mpg and that's what kills me. After the first five minutes or so, I would say about 75% of the time, I get 45-55 (these are 5 min averages, not instantaneous) according to the display. Of course there are times when I see 60s and 70s and higher, too.

According to what I hear, accelerating on purely electric motor is more inefficient than using the gas engine, so one should get reasonably quickly up to speed without gunning it or anything. People seem to say that the electric motor is best for maintaining speed without the using gas engine once you're up to coasting speed. Please correct this if it is wrong.

So, clearly either CARB hasn't thought about the issue of speed limits, or it's politically not feasible. I agree that it would be better to slow down as well as teaching people to drive smarter. But shouldn't we push for a reduction in emissions as well regardless of whether the legislature supports these other measures that you've suggested? This would fall under the "it's better than nothing" reasoning. Also, I believe the regulations apply to fleet averages, so the issue of who can afford which cars should not matter, is that right?

I'm in graduate school for physics getting a PhD. My work is in the area of biophysics - not really related at all to any of the discussion in this thread. Heh, your comment about having to make 100K per year to own a Prius makes me think I probably shouldn't have one. I had some money saved up, and took out a loan which covered about half the price of the car. My parents generously gave me an interest-free loan for the rest. I would have been hard pressed to get the car on my 20K salary. It helps though that I only support myself and not a family of 4. I do live in one of the more expensive part of the country though - Santa Barbara. And no, I'm not looking to publish anything. Just curious and worried about climate change.

Thanks for all the information you've given. If you do have more tips on how to drive more efficiently, that would be great. By they way, do you drive any differently if there are cars behind you? I tend to accelerate and drive a little faster if there are cars behind me, especially if they get close. Yes, I need to sleep as well...

Lawrence

 

Keep in mind that my driving style is different than what most drivers expect, I'll generally use the far right lane. The exception to this is if the right lanes clog up with traffic & I'll go around to keep momentum.

For me, it all depends on the situation. Here are a few examples:
SINGLE LANE HIGHWAYOR ROAD
a. Someone follows at a safe distance.
--I make zero changes.
b. Have a "mild" tailgater.
--I make zero changes.
c. Have an agressive tailgater.
--I'll go to my next passing point and let them go. My route is almost always the same and I know exactly where I can move out of the way and not hurt my MPG...much. I mainly use vacant Left & Right turn lanes for this.
Both me and the (Typically) teenager appreciate this.
MULTIPLE LANE HIGHWAY, FREEWAY OR ROAD
If the tailgater can easily pass me... Ex if the next lane over is vacant...I'll make zero changes.
If I'm out of the Right lane I'll move back into it, as long as the Right lane isn't clogged with traffic.
If I'm already in the Right lane I'll stay the course.

Beginning from a stop sign or light on any road:
--The first thing I do is set up a traffic buffer. The benifits are numerous. Almost guaranteed, you'll be tailgated. So what? Chances are if you were just gassing it like everyone else they'd still get behind you anyway.

I used to be very concered about people behind me, in my first couple of months of driving for efficiency. Now it hardly ever affects me anymore.
As long as I'm to the right and going about the posted limits I'm "In the right".
We all need to be courtious and considerate drivers.

The article I did for Greenhybrid about driving for efficiency has some serious basic flaws. Since Wayne is really great at FE, I'll let him chime in with other tips if he would like.