Software updates for '05
#1
11-19-2008, 01:15 PM
Software updates for '05
I had my malfunciton indicator light and IMA light come on the other day. I've got about 58K miles on it. Took it into a local dealer and they're telling me that I need a software update to the IMA and emmisons control. They tell me that these software updates are not covered under my honda care extended warranty since they're not replacing anything. I'm pretty sure that I had to get the updates back in '05/'06.
Has anyone seen this before. It is a bitter pill to swallow to pay $77 for a software upgrade. Especially with an extended warranty..
Has anyone seen this before. It is a bitter pill to swallow to pay $77 for a software upgrade. Especially with an extended warranty..
#2
11-19-2008, 02:39 PM
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Re: Software updates for '05
Hmm, I don't recall seeing any updates to the software for the '05. I thought the updates only applied to the early '06 models.
Did you get any more information about the update from the dealer?
Did you get any more information about the update from the dealer?
#3
11-19-2008, 02:49 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Software updates for '05
Okay, there WAS an update. I forgot all about it.
http://www.alldata.com/tsb/Honda/11...-038/index.html
Honda Service Bulletin 05-038
Applies to 2005 Accord Hybrid - From VIN JHMCN3...5C000001 thru 5C006600
November 24, 2004
Product Update: IMA Battery Software Update
Background
The current battery control software can lead to IMA battery damage when the HDS is used in the generic mode, or a generic scan tool is used to clear IMA diagnostic trouble shooting codes (DTCs).
The current engine control software will celar the stored learned valuse sofr the CKP (crankshaft position) sensor if an HDS in generic mode, or a generic scan tool is used to clear DTCs.
With the CKP values cleared, the PCM could misinterpret the CKP input at high rpm as ping paired misfire (P0301/P0305) and set these DTCs.
Corrective Action
Update the IMA battery control module and the PGM-FI sofware using the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS)
Software Information
HDS Software Version 1.018.016 or later
Be sure to use the latest software available (curently 2.002.006). If the correct version of the software is not used, the HDS may incorrectly indicate that the system does not need an update.
Honda Service Bulletin 05-038
Applies to 2005 Accord Hybrid - From VIN JHMCN3...5C000001 thru 5C006600
November 24, 2004
Product Update: IMA Battery Software Update
Background
The current battery control software can lead to IMA battery damage when the HDS is used in the generic mode, or a generic scan tool is used to clear IMA diagnostic trouble shooting codes (DTCs).
The current engine control software will celar the stored learned valuse sofr the CKP (crankshaft position) sensor if an HDS in generic mode, or a generic scan tool is used to clear DTCs.
With the CKP values cleared, the PCM could misinterpret the CKP input at high rpm as ping paired misfire (P0301/P0305) and set these DTCs.
Corrective Action
Update the IMA battery control module and the PGM-FI sofware using the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS)
Software Information
HDS Software Version 1.018.016 or later
Be sure to use the latest software available (curently 2.002.006). If the correct version of the software is not used, the HDS may incorrectly indicate that the system does not need an update.
#4
11-20-2008, 08:54 AM
Re: Software updates for '05
The current issue I'm having seems to be completly seperate from the '05 update. I've got the update codes on my work order. I still can't get over that they didn't take any thing on or off the car to fix. Simply plug in a computer in it's fixed. How does that warrant $77?!? My 10 year old laptop gets update for free!
#5
11-20-2008, 10:14 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Software updates for '05
The $77 may also include the initial charge to troubleshoot your problem. It was nice of them to troubleshoot your car for free, so be thankful for that. So maybe part of the $77 they want to charge you for the update may partially be to recoup some of the cost of not charging you the first time.
Also, sure it's a simple fix. And since you're not getting a tangible product from them, you feel like they're ripping you off by charging you for the update. However, the software is intellectual property. It's like getting medical advice from a doctor. Or, getting a massage. You're not receiving a physical item, but you're still getting a service. So yeah, I'd feel paying for an update is fair. Now, how much they're charging for it? Well, that does seem like a lot. $77 might be an hourly shop rate. However, since the fix is quick, they should at least charge you half that, if not less.
Pull out your Honda Care stuff and read through the fine print. See if it says anything about software updates being covered or not.
Also, you can try to get the dealer to call American Honda Motors to see if they'll pay the bill under "good will." Since the update seems to affect the hybrid components, which are supposed to be covered by the 8yr/80K mile warranty.
In fact, pull out your warranty book (should be included with all the other books that were in the glovebox when you bought the car) and see just what's covered in the 8yr/80K mile warranty and see if it mentions software updates.
Let us know how it goes.
Also, sure it's a simple fix. And since you're not getting a tangible product from them, you feel like they're ripping you off by charging you for the update. However, the software is intellectual property. It's like getting medical advice from a doctor. Or, getting a massage. You're not receiving a physical item, but you're still getting a service. So yeah, I'd feel paying for an update is fair. Now, how much they're charging for it? Well, that does seem like a lot. $77 might be an hourly shop rate. However, since the fix is quick, they should at least charge you half that, if not less.
Pull out your Honda Care stuff and read through the fine print. See if it says anything about software updates being covered or not.
Also, you can try to get the dealer to call American Honda Motors to see if they'll pay the bill under "good will." Since the update seems to affect the hybrid components, which are supposed to be covered by the 8yr/80K mile warranty.
In fact, pull out your warranty book (should be included with all the other books that were in the glovebox when you bought the car) and see just what's covered in the 8yr/80K mile warranty and see if it mentions software updates.
Let us know how it goes.
#6
11-21-2008, 02:36 PM
Re: Software updates for '05
If this is an emissions update you have at least to 80000mi or if in California 100000 mi a manufacturers warrenty. Check your owners manual! We bought our '05 new and there has only been one recall(fuel pump connection) and no software updates!
#7
11-22-2008, 03:32 PM
Re: Software updates for '05
I don't buy the intelletual property issue. The car left the factory with the necessary software to run properly, and it should not need software updates to run as it was intended.
#8
11-22-2008, 05:45 PM
Re: Software updates for '05
OK.. here's the deal. First off $77 is about the going rate to perform this service.
I don't buy the 'intellectual property' either, but I do feel the charge for this service is justified. Why? Because the equipment they have to purchase to perform these updates cost $50,000 and sometimes more! Businesses are entitled to make money (and obviously wouldn't be in business if they didn't), and considering that they are practically the only source to have this done at this point, I feel they are 100% entitled for charging this fee (and actually surprised that they don't charge more!)
As parts wear and become more dependent on electronics and computers, sometimes they can cause a reading that goes beyond programmed parameters and set a fault code. Over time, the engineers get to see what is 'actually' happening, versus what they 'thought' would happen while designing the car, and a lot of the time realize that a part they would have previously thought to be bad, actually has a lot more life left in it. The computer update changes these parameters to reflect this extra knowledge.
Basically, the updates tell the computer "Really, that part isn't bad yet... let's let it go awhile longer before we condemn it completely".
Also in some instances, such as this one, the update was designed to help protect the system from third-party diagnostic equipment. When your computer was originally programmed, there was no one else that could interface with this system besides Honda. Since then, many companies have developed their own scanners and diagnostic equipment, and Honda found a problem in the way that some of these 'do their thing' that could damage your expensive components, and the update is to prevent this from happening.
I tend to get a bit frustrated that automotive manufacturers seem to have taken the 'microsoft' approach to this kind of thing... it almost seems as if they push out the programming too fast, and then have to release updates to fix things that should have been discovered in the design stages (Just like Microsoft has to constantly update Windows because of programming flaws that should have been fixed in the first place)... BUT you have to keep in mind that during design, everything is based on theory. It is often not until many cars are already on the road in which the engineers can anticipate certain scenarios, and as these happen, then they can issue updates accordingly.
I'm sorry that you car is out of warranty, but no matter how well a car is designed and built, they don't run perfect forever, and the manufacturers can't fix these for free forever, because if they did they would either go out of business, or no one would be able to afford their products.
You have to draw the line somewhere...
I don't buy the 'intellectual property' either, but I do feel the charge for this service is justified. Why? Because the equipment they have to purchase to perform these updates cost $50,000 and sometimes more! Businesses are entitled to make money (and obviously wouldn't be in business if they didn't), and considering that they are practically the only source to have this done at this point, I feel they are 100% entitled for charging this fee (and actually surprised that they don't charge more!)
As parts wear and become more dependent on electronics and computers, sometimes they can cause a reading that goes beyond programmed parameters and set a fault code. Over time, the engineers get to see what is 'actually' happening, versus what they 'thought' would happen while designing the car, and a lot of the time realize that a part they would have previously thought to be bad, actually has a lot more life left in it. The computer update changes these parameters to reflect this extra knowledge.
Basically, the updates tell the computer "Really, that part isn't bad yet... let's let it go awhile longer before we condemn it completely".
Also in some instances, such as this one, the update was designed to help protect the system from third-party diagnostic equipment. When your computer was originally programmed, there was no one else that could interface with this system besides Honda. Since then, many companies have developed their own scanners and diagnostic equipment, and Honda found a problem in the way that some of these 'do their thing' that could damage your expensive components, and the update is to prevent this from happening.
I tend to get a bit frustrated that automotive manufacturers seem to have taken the 'microsoft' approach to this kind of thing... it almost seems as if they push out the programming too fast, and then have to release updates to fix things that should have been discovered in the design stages (Just like Microsoft has to constantly update Windows because of programming flaws that should have been fixed in the first place)... BUT you have to keep in mind that during design, everything is based on theory. It is often not until many cars are already on the road in which the engineers can anticipate certain scenarios, and as these happen, then they can issue updates accordingly.
I'm sorry that you car is out of warranty, but no matter how well a car is designed and built, they don't run perfect forever, and the manufacturers can't fix these for free forever, because if they did they would either go out of business, or no one would be able to afford their products.
You have to draw the line somewhere...
#9
12-23-2008, 07:18 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: neither here, nor there...
Posts: 1,682
Re: Software updates for '05
I just had mine updated. My dealer didn't charge me for it. I think because I had it there for some other work.
So maybe you should try the same thing. The next time you're in for an oil change/tire rotation/tranny flush, ask them if they'll perform the TSB at no charge?
Also, I do see in the TSB that it says to charge a flat rate time of 0.3 hours for this work. It also goes on to say this work may be eligible for "goodwill consideration" from the District Parts and Service Manager or Zone Office. You can always ask if they'll request it.
So maybe you should try the same thing. The next time you're in for an oil change/tire rotation/tranny flush, ask them if they'll perform the TSB at no charge?
Also, I do see in the TSB that it says to charge a flat rate time of 0.3 hours for this work. It also goes on to say this work may be eligible for "goodwill consideration" from the District Parts and Service Manager or Zone Office. You can always ask if they'll request it.
Last edited by bar10dah; 12-23-2008 at 07:20 AM.
#10
01-04-2009, 03:30 PM
Re: Software updates for '05
Check out these federal laws that cover you hybrid honda.8/80 Integrated Motor Assist System (IMA)
System Covered/Part Name Federal
CA
CA/CT/MA/
ME/VT
ME/VT
Crankcase Control System
Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) Valve 3/36 3/50
Engine Oil Fill Cap 3/36 3/50
Engine Oil Fill Cap 3/36 3/50
Evaporative and Refueling Emissions
Control System
Control System
Fuel Tank (including Fuel Tank Vapor/ 3/36
7/70
Liquid Separation Valve and Vapor
Recirculation Tube)
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor 3/36 3/50
Fuel Pump Module 3/36
Recirculation Tube)
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor 3/36 3/50
Fuel Pump Module 3/36
7/70
Fuel Fi
lter (including Fuel Pressure
Regulator)*1 3/36 3/50
Fuel Fill Pipe 3/36 3/50
Fuel Fill Cap 3/36 3/50
Evaporative Emission Lines and/or Hoses 3/36 3/50
Evaporative Emission Canister 3/36 3/50
Evaporative Emission Valves 3/36 3/50
Regulator)*1 3/36 3/50
Fuel Fill Pipe 3/36 3/50
Fuel Fill Cap 3/36 3/50
Evaporative Emission Lines and/or Hoses 3/36 3/50
Evaporative Emission Canister 3/36 3/50
Evaporative Emission Valves 3/36 3/50
Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) System
Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve
(including EGR Valve Position Sensor) 3/36 3/50
(including EGR Valve Position Sensor) 3/36 3/50
Exhaust System
Catalytic Converters
8/80 8/80
System Covered/Part Name Federal
CA
CA/CT/MA/
ME/VT
ME/VT
Exhaust System (cont’d)
Exhaust Pipe (engine to catalytic
converter or between converters) 3/36 3/50
converter or between converters) 3/36 3/50
Ignition System
Ignition Coils 3/36 3/50
Spark Plugs 3/36 3/50
Crankshaft Position Sensor 3/36
Spark Plugs 3/36 3/50
Crankshaft Position Sensor 3/36
7/70
Camshaft Position Sensor 3/36 3/50
Fuel Injection System
Engine/Powertrain Control Module
8/80 8/80
(including Barometric Pressure
Sensor and Software Upgrades)
Throttle Actuator Control Module
Sensor and Software Upgrades)
Throttle Actuator Control Module
8/80 8/80
Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor 3/36 3/50
Injectors 3/36 3/50
Fuel Rail 3/36 3/50
Fuel Lines and/or Hoses 3/36 3/50
Knock Sensors 3/36 3/50
Oxygen Sensors 3/36 3/50
Air Fuel Ratio Sensor 3/36 3/50
MAP Sensor 3/36 3/50
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor 3/36 3/50
Injectors 3/36 3/50
Fuel Rail 3/36 3/50
Fuel Lines and/or Hoses 3/36 3/50
Knock Sensors 3/36 3/50
Oxygen Sensors 3/36 3/50
Air Fuel Ratio Sensor 3/36 3/50
MAP Sensor 3/36 3/50
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor 3/36 3/50
Federal and California Emissions Warranties Parts List
APL 28253 (0409)
This list details the components covered and the warranty duration in years and miles, whichever comes first. Your vehicle may
not be equipped with all of the parts listed.
not be equipped with all of the parts listed.
Federal
column applies to all vehicles registered and normally operated in all states other than California/Connecticut/
Massachusetts/Maine/Vermont.
Massachusetts/Maine/Vermont.
California
column applies to all vehicles registered and normally operated in California/Connecticut/Massachusetts/
Maine/Vermont.
Maine/Vermont.
2005 Accord Hybrid
Federal and California Emissions Warranties Parts List
System Covered/Part Name Federal
CA
CA/CT/MA/
ME/VT
ME/VT
Fuel Injection System (cont’d)
Intake Air Temperature Sensor 3/36 3/50
Thermostat 3/36 3/50
Thermostat 3/36 3/50
OBD System
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) 3/36
7/70
Data Link Connector (DLC) 3/36
7/70
Transmission Control System
Transmission Control System
Input Shaft (Mainshaft) Speed Sensor 3/36 3/50
Output Shaft (Countershaft) Speed Sensor 3/36 3/50
Shift Solenoid & Clutch Pressure Control 3/36 3/50
Solenoid Valves
Transmission Fluid Pressure Switch 3/36 3/50
Shift Control Solenoid Valves 3/36 3/50
Transmission Range Switch 3/36 3/50
Output Shaft (Countershaft) Speed Sensor 3/36 3/50
Shift Solenoid & Clutch Pressure Control 3/36 3/50
Solenoid Valves
Transmission Fluid Pressure Switch 3/36 3/50
Shift Control Solenoid Valves 3/36 3/50
Transmission Range Switch 3/36 3/50
In
take Air System
Throttle Body (including Throttle Position 3/36 3/50
Sensor and Throttle Actuactor)
Mass Airflow Sensor 3/36 3/50
Intake Manifold Assembly 3/36
Sensor and Throttle Actuactor)
Mass Airflow Sensor 3/36 3/50
Intake Manifold Assembly 3/36
7/70
Intake Manifold Tuning Actuator Assembly 3/36 3/50
Intake Air Resonator 3/36 3/50
Intake Air Ducts 3/36 3/50
Air Cleaner Housing 3/36 3/50
Air Cleaner Housing Cover 3/36 3/50
Air Cleaner Element
Intake Air Resonator 3/36 3/50
Intake Air Ducts 3/36 3/50
Air Cleaner Housing 3/36 3/50
Air Cleaner Housing Cover 3/36 3/50
Air Cleaner Element
*2 3/36 3/50
Variable Cylinder Management System
Spool Valve Assembly 3/36 3/50
Engine Oil Pressure Sensor 3/36 3/50
Engine Oil Pressure Sensor 3/36 3/50
System Covered/Part Name Federal
CA
CA/CT/MA/
ME/VT
ME/VT
Integrated Motor Assist System (IMA)
Battery Assembly (including all internal
8/80 8/80
components)
DC-DC Converter
DC-DC Converter
8/80 8/80
Motor Control Module
8/80 8/80
Motor Power Inverter Module (including
8/80 8/80
software updates)
8/80 8/80
Motor Rotor
8/80 8/80
Motor Stator
8/80 8/80
Busbar 3/36 3/50
Bypass Contactor 3/36 3/50
Bypass Resistor 3/36 3/50
High Voltage Contactor 3/36 3/50
Battery Current Sensor 3/36 3/50
Motor Rotor Position Sensor 3/36 3/50
Motor Current Sensor 3/36 3/50
Motor Power Cable 3/36
Bypass Contactor 3/36 3/50
Bypass Resistor 3/36 3/50
High Voltage Contactor 3/36 3/50
Battery Current Sensor 3/36 3/50
Motor Rotor Position Sensor 3/36 3/50
Motor Current Sensor 3/36 3/50
Motor Power Cable 3/36
7/70
High Voltage Motor Power Inverter 3/36 3/50
Module Cable
Intelligent Power Unit Air Duct and Fan 3/36 3/50
Power Control Unit Air Duct 3/36 3/50
Motor Power Inverter Module Fan 3/36 3/50
Control Relay
Module Cable
Intelligent Power Unit Air Duct and Fan 3/36 3/50
Power Control Unit Air Duct 3/36 3/50
Motor Power Inverter Module Fan 3/36 3/50
Control Relay
Miscellaneous Parts
that are used in conjunction with the items in
this list are covered. Some examples are: clamps, brackets, piping,
nuts, bolts, fasteners, switches, sensors, solenoids, wires, harnesses,
connectors, seals, and gaskets.
this list are covered. Some examples are: clamps, brackets, piping,
nuts, bolts, fasteners, switches, sensors, solenoids, wires, harnesses,
connectors, seals, and gaskets.
*
1 Fuel filter replacement and fuel tank flushing are covered when
contamination results from a defect in material or workmanship.
contamination results from a defect in material or workmanship.
*
2 Covered up to the first required replacement only; see the
maintenance schedule in the Owner’s Manual.
maintenance schedule in the Owner’s Manual.
2005 Accord Hybrid
