You're right, I neglected figuring in that I paid MSRP. I guess I'm just as guilty as those bashing the hybrids. But I also didn't quantify that I'm getting better performance than I'd get with the 4 cylinder LE. Also, it's a brand new model and there's only about a $2500 difference between invoice and MSRP, so I may have gotten $1000 - $1500 off of MSRP.

 

My post wasn't really about whether or not it's their prerogative to buy the SUV -- it was more about the notion that WHEN they buy the SUV, the analysis of their needs vs. whether the vehicle satisifies those needs and whether it provides adequate return on investment don't enter into the purchase decision. But when it's a hybrid, suddenly we need to do the math (err, rather a botched job of the math) and declare that it's not worth it.

It's as though there is some innate knowledge that the SUV *is* nothing more than an indulgence, is socially irresponsible, and therefore a source of guilt -- so they need to rationalize why buying a hybrid was a bad idea.

I actually had two or three different sets of people criticize me for buying my Toyota Prius because it's an import and *that* means good 'ol American dollars are leaving the country and headed for foreign shores -- ergo I am now un-patriotic. I had to wonder exactly what percentage of the excess fuel burned in their SUVs came from American oil wells and whether they'd considered how patriotic it is to spend thousands per year on foreign oil because the US doesn't have enough oil (by a longshot) to satisfy it's own demand.

 

Although it bears keeping constant vigil, we had a simular error earlier this year which Consumer Reports corrected. Just search the archives of this forum for:

"Blunder in Hybrid Car Cost Comparison by Consumer Reports"

Bob Wilson

 

Next time you get crap like that, tell them this:

Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. (TMS) is the US sales, distribution, and marketing unit for Toyota Motor's Toyota, Lexus, and Scion brands. More than 60% of the Toyotas sold in the US also are made in North America, and Toyota employs more than 30,000 Americans involved in the manufacture, research, financing, marketing, and sales of its cars, light trucks, and SUVs. Sales are conducted through more than 1,400 dealerships throughout the US. Founded in 1957, TMS and its subsidiaries are also invloved in distribution logistics, motorsports, and general aviation.

All those 30,000 people are spending that money in America, funding their families, paying for college tuition, and pumping millions of dollars back into the American economy.

Also this:

Toyota Sienna - 85% USA/Canada made.
Toyota Camry and Tundra - 80% USA/Canada made.
Toyota Avalon and Corolla - 75% USA/Canda made.

 

I disagree that people don't stop to think about their vehicle purchase. Very few people can afford not to think about it. Most people, I know, spend a lot of time thinking about what they want in the next vehicle they purchase. Usually it is based on the short comings of the vehicle they are currently driving. So if someone believes they can use the extra carrying capacity an SUV provides, it is probably because they have found themselves in situation where it would have benefited them. There are always exceptions to the rules, but the majority of SUV drivers have them because they have determine they NEED the extra capacity. It is awfully presumptious of us to assume that they are incapable of evaluating their own needs.

 

It's also their prerogative to pay $3.50 per gallon. "A fool and his money..."

My partner was at work the other day and overheard one of the nurses telling another, "I have to fill up every 3 days." (She drives an SUV and lives upstate.) The other nurse replied, "I have to fill up every 5 days." Martin stuck his head around the corner and said, "19 days! I don't even know what the price of gas is now." Talk about a priceless moment.

Now, the nurse that drives the SUV's husband also has an SUV. I can understand having one. They've got 3 kids and live in an area that's tough to get to in bad weather. But it never occurred to them that they only need to fit the entire family in ONE of the cars.

One of the guys here at work is considering a FEH. Then he told me this morning that he's "thinking about building a 16 foot sailboat, so I can't get a hybrid." He didn't even bother to check that the FEH is rated to tow 1000 pounds.

 

The reason people point to the economics of hybrids is because they have been marketed as gas savers. The bottom line is at current gas prices you will not recoupe the extra expense of a hybrid, in gas savings, unless you keep the vehicle 5+ years. This is for the average drive. There is nothing false about this statement.

You are correct in that increased mpg is not the only reason for purchasing a hybrid. I believe the reduce emmissions is one the best reasons to own a hybrid, regardless of mpg. I wish you would see manufacturer spend more time marketing this aspect of the hybrid vehicle.

I disagree however that when someone purchases an SUV that they dont do "the analysis of their needs vs. whether the vehicle satisifies those needs and whether it provides adequate return on investment"
I know when I purchase my vehicle I spend a lot of time evaluating what I am exactly looking for and then start weighing the cost for certain capabilities. This is also true for most people I know and interface with. I know very few people who go out and buy a vehicle on a whim.

I find this ironic. You are upset with these people for judging you for making a puchase based on your needs and beliefs, but you have no problem turning around and passing the same judgement on them.

Bottom line is that Hybrids are expensive compared to other vehicles of their size. You can argue what the actual price difference is, but most hybrids come with upper trim levels and sell closer to MSRP. I don't know of a single hybrid that is actually selling for less it's non-hybrid counterpart. All these articles are pointing out is that if your ONLY reason for purchasing a hybrid is to save MONEY on gas, then you are better of looking at other options. If you have additional reasons for the purchase than only you can decide if the cost of a hybrid is worth it.

 

OK allow me to clarify my thoughts:

SOME PEOPLE *COULD* buy a smaller car or a smaller SUV but DO NOT put in the time to come to realize that fact correctly until it's too late.

I know of lots of people who have done this. I know a single girl who owns a 4-door Explorer. I myself bought an Avalanche in 2002 when an Impala or a Park Avenue would have sufficed. A man I know has an Escalade and is realizing he can do everything he needs with a Highlander Hybrid and has ordered one to replace it.

90% of the time, a family of 5 can buy virtually ANY midsize car and have enough room to do whatever they need. Cars have roof racks and you can, with a little effort and thoughtful planning, pack a TON of stuff in and onto a car for a long trip.

Many minivans get better MPG than SUVs too.

The "SUV trend" of the 1990s was a mistake a lot of us perpetrated. Now maybe we are starting to realize smaller CAN BE BETTER.

 

Recently lakedude (main wheels is an HCH) said he would be interested in a GM dual-mode hybrid truck if they come out in a couple of years. Occassionaly he needs to tow stuff. He does not drive the truck all the time, just like most people don't wear a winter coat year-round.

 

That's a fine idea. Someone who needs towing should have a few different hybrid options.