Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Hi Guys,

I'm a 2007 FEH owner in Los Angeles. These vehicles are getting popular here. The Santa Monica dealer has about fifteen of them all lined up in front and they sell fast.

I have been very satisfied with mine -- normally getting 40mpg on a 20 minute round trip errand in the heart of the city. Nice.

My question, though, is about camping and using the AC and DC outlets for camp power. I am aware of how to use the AC plug, with the keys in the ignition. It acts like an intelligent generator, only starting the engine from time to time, running lights in camp.

But my knowledge ends there and I have been unsuccessful using the search tool here for more info.

• What is the real load I can run in camp through the AC plug?

• About how much gasoline does it use if I run near capacity for hours at a stretch?

• What about using the two DC outlets with inverters from the auto store? Can I run those in the same "intelligent" on-off mode that makes the AC outlet so cool? Even if they use the little battery in front?

I feel like I need a primer on the basics of using the FEH as a stationary power supply. I do not have great electrical knowledge. Thanks.

-Christopher

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

#1 the car is starting and stopping to keep the engine hot. Not to keep the battery charged ( although that happens also as a side note ).

#2 the "stock" AC plug is good for just what it says, 150 watts. Not much, so be careful. Also, it is not a perfect 60 Hz sine wave power supply either, so very sensitve equipment might struggle.

#3 While using just the AC 110v outlet, let the car run ( in park ) until it stops. Then TURN THE KEY OFF, and back to RUN, without re-starting the gas engine. If you ONLY use the AC 110v plug, you can run it for 2-3 hours before starting the gas engine. 2 hours FOR SURE... probably 3 hours...
THEN start the gas engine with the key, and let it run until it shuts itself off again. Your large battery usually charges FASTER than the time required to heat up the engine and catalytic converters.

#4 If you add on other inverters, you have 400 watt hours to play with per full charge of the car's battery. So you could run your stock 150w inverter for about 2.5 hours. You could run a 400watt inverter for 1 hour. You could run an 800 watt inverter for 30 minutes. You get the idea.

#5 your car has two batteries, true, but just one "electrical system"... so don't try to differentiate between the two batteries. Look at it as your car has 400 watt hours to give per charge.

#6 Good news is, each 400 watt hour charge takes only about 5 minutes to restore. Now that's a fast charger in my book!

Enjoy, and post back often!
-John

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Wow. Thanks John for the informed reply. I wanted to run more than just 150 watts at camp and I was worried about using both the 110 AC outlet AND the DC with an inverter at the same time.

I might use a 200 watt inverter on one of the DC ports (does it matter which one?) and combine that with the AC port of 150 watts. Thats 350 total. So I should start the Escape up only once an hour under this scenario? And if I wanted to let the show run while I went away for more than an hour, I would leave the ignition ON and it would keep things running OK.

My plan is to run a video projector and sound amplifier at a remote location and this will fit the bill. Cool.

By the way, if I did leave the ignition on, what would be the max over all watts I could pull from all three ports?

Thanks again.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

With the key in "run" with the gas engine started, you would be safe to let it run forever without keeping track, until you ran out of gas! ( probably one-third to one-half gallon per hour )

With engine running, you still have 150 watts from the bulit-in one.
Engine running or not, you only have 120 watts from the cigarette lighter(s).
Each one has 10 amps.

So you could have 150 + 120 + 120 using all three.

Larger than 120 watt inverters will need to attach directly to the 12v battery under the hood with clamps ( like jumper cables ). If you attach under the hood, you could probably use as large as you can find. ( 2000 watts? )

Pulling about 2000 watts, your gas engine would run 5 min on / 5 min off repeat. ( maybe 5 min on, 10 minutes off, best case )

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Very good info to know! I feel like I can make some informed decisions now. It would be awful to get stuck after blowing the electrical system.

This is better than a Honda generator!

-Christopher

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

John pointed out all the great technicial information...just remember that it is still a vehicle with emissions...

Remember to watch out for elevated levels of CO as a result of running the engine. In an outdoor setting as you seem to be describing, it should be fine, however your version of camping tends to be a bit different than mine!

I have used the built-in inverter with my laptop, and while it is not providing true sine-wave power, it seems to be reletively happy. If you are running high end audio equipment, such as an amplifier, it may be a bit more picky.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Well, there are two kinds of camping in my book: quiet nature camping and Burning Man festival camping! I do both and honor the attitude of both. The electrical stuff is for Burning Man crazy camping. The sound and light show wouldn't be for the Henry David Thoreau experience.

In addition, I am also thinking of power outages in the city. Hurricanes, terrorism, whatever.

That being said, I do wonder about CO gas emissions. The vehicle will be at least 15 to 25 yards away from tents but what if I attached a pipe or clothes-dryer type tube to the exhaust pipe and elevate it on a pole to about 12 ft in the air.

Thanks guys.

-Christopher

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Don't worry about emissions.

#1 the car will cycle every few minutes... being totally off more than on

#2 this is the cleanest car built by ANY manufacturer in the USA. ( maybe world )

#3 while I DO NOTwant anyone to actually try this, by all measurements, coupled with the fact the car will run only a fraction of the time... you could indeed run this car in a closed garage without killing yourself... provided the catalyst and engine are at full temperature. Don't think that's true? There are gas powered stoves and lamps that have such good catalysts these days that they are approved for indoor use, or inside tents.

#4 being OUTSIDE in the first place, you, and your guests will have nothing to worry about.

#5 the BIG plus is, this Ford "generator" will be much quieter, and about 100 times cleaner burning than any portable gas powered generator!

Have fun.
Post details after!
-John

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Does the factory inverter (110v outlet) draw from the 12v battery or the 300v battery?

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Without the key on the 110v outlet isn't even live I think (the 12V next to it is)....

I read on here that it draws from the 12V. The 330V doesn't really end up being some large battery to power your TV and stuff... In fact in watt hours its not even as big as you might think. Its really just there to start the vehicle and store braking energy for release. The fact you can get a few miles out of it is almost a bonus.

Of course if the ignition is on... it really doesn't matter where it draws from... the generator keeps the 330V system up and there is a step down to 14V or so to power the 12V system and charge the 12V battery... there isn't any alternator per se.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

I should mention something that nobody has yet pointed out...

Lead acid batteries like to be kept fully charged. Manufacturers still use lead-acid battery technology for car starter batteries because they get the best life expectancy based on the way these batteries are normally used -- e.g. they drain just slightly while running the 'starter' on the car, then when the car starts they immediately get charged back up. These batteries seldom ever drain below 95% full and for lead-acid technology that's a good thing.

If you never let lead-acid battery technology drain below an 80% charge then you can expect the battery to last a very long time. If you start draining it down below that you can expect to reduce the battery life (by which I mean the number of years before you have to buy a new battery). I would never let my car battery drain down to say -- 20% capacity because that just kills the life expectancy.

ALSO... should you happen to over-drain the car to a point where it wont start, make sure you read the owners manual in the section on jump starting. The FEH should not be jump started in the manner of a conventional car. However, since it has two independent battery systems it is actually capable of jump-starting itself. Down in the driver's side footwell there's a panel with a button (the owner's manual illustrates where to find it) which performs this. It's been a while since I read it, but I seem to recall that you push the button, an LED will blink for about 30 seconds (while it transfers some charge from one battery to the other via a transformer) and the light goes solid -- at which point you should attempt to start the car. I think they claim it has enough power to attempt this twice.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

While we're on this subject, has anybody here tried using deep-cycle batteries like Optima yellow tops or Odysseys instead of the OEMs for better accessory performance? I realize that if you need to make a warranty claim, youbably want to keep everything underhood looking stock, but a stronger battery could be helpful for these situations.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Just to clarify...

The built-in 150 watt 110 VAC inverter does not work without the key in run.
Anytime the key is in run, the HV battery is active.
Therfore, it is the HV battery that is providing the "juice" to the inverter, the radio, the lamps, the windows, etc... AS LONG AT IT IS CAPABLE.

Only after the HV battery drops below 40%, A) the engine will kick on to recharge, and the 12v under hood battery will never be used... or B) the HV battery will be cut out ( you can hear a relay click ) and the 12v battery will take over...

A) occurs if you "start" the car and get the car icon. Engine will cycle.
B) occurs if you put the key to run without a start ( no car icon )

The 12v battery does very, very little in this car.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

The correct answer is, all accessories draw current from the HV battery first, and only draw current from the 12v battery as back-up, if the HV battery ever drops below 40%.

The HV battery IS your "inverter". There is no under-hood inverter in this car.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Hmmmm.....I'm a bit confused....

At least one if not both of the 12V accessory outlets that ARE active even with no key in the ignition...the same goes with the NAV unit which can run for up to 30 minutes after the key is pulled out.....(or until you open the door). Only the 120V seems to be off and dead with the key NOT in the run position...

Now once that key is in the ignition and its in RUN its academic.... The car is ON and the whole thing is really just tapped off the HV system with a HV to 14V stepdown converter (for those that wonder I'm guessing at the 14V, I believe thats typically what the charging system for normal a car runs at, you have to have a slightly higher voltage to recharge a 12V battery and all the accessories are desgined to take it)..... I have no idea whether the 120V is created from the HV buss or the 12V buss but in reality it doesn't matter...either way with that key in run the power is coming originally from the HV system.

With the key off and the SUV sitting there I thought the HV system was off, therefore anything that still runs would have to come off the 12V wouldn't it? So in that case some of the accessories do run off the 12V.

That may be what you meant... I'm just confused.....

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

True if the HV battery is low - the 12V can boost the 330V. If the 12V battery is dead you can still jump-start the car with a donor vehicle. You can't charge a dead 12V with the HV battery the way I understand it.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Thanks John I was checking my own "facts" to see if they were right. If you'd said different then I'd start to compare notes to see what was different.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

This is fascinating guys. What about the Accessory position for the key -- between Off and Run? That is from the big HV battery then, right? That was the impression I got from the start of this thread.

And do I also understand correctly from what has been said, that even the starting of the engine is done from the big HV battery (thus the reason for the way the "internal jump" trick works)

Thanks from an electrical newbie.

-Christopher

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

I was just thinking.... the brakes pressure up when you open the door...

Is this being done by the 12v or 300v system???
It is for sure going on without the key!

And one would think it would tend to run via 300 volts...

FYI

One click of the key is ACC... this runs windows, lights, radio, from 12v system. YOU DO NOT have the inverter on with ACC.

Two clicks of the key is RUN... this runs windows, lights, radio, from 300v system. YOU DO have the inverter on with RUN.

Turn farther and you hit start. Release and the key rebounds to run. You do not need to start to use the inverter or activate the big 300v battery.

Turn your headlamps on, and move key to ACC. You will get 12.x volts.
Leave headlamps on, and move key to RUN. You will get 14.x volts.
Engine is off the whole time.

-John

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Well... its an electric pump and its for the brakes 12V would probably be plenty. If I were building the thing it would run from the 12V system so the HV system could be disconnected when shes off....

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Got this from a Ford Guidebook:

The DC/AC inverter converts 12 volts DC to 110 volts AC to power a device that uses AC current
with a rating of less than 150 watts. The power point will automatically shut off if the load exceeds
150 watts. This prevents damage to the inverter or load. The inverter supplies 110 volts AC power
only when the key is in the ON/START position. This reduces the draw on the 12-volt system
when the vehicle is not running. The DC/AC inverter outlet (AC power point) is equipped with a
green light emitting diode (LED) that indicates the system integrity. The green LED illuminates
continuously when the key is in the ON/START position and the system is operating normally. The
green LED flashes constantly if the key is in the ON/START position and a fault is detected. Short
circuits, overloads or overheating of the inverter will cause the green LED to flash and the power
to be cut off to the outlet. If the LED is flashing, the problem must be corrected (e.g., short circuit
or excessive load). If the inverter is overheated, it must be allowed time to cool off (without the
load connected).
The power outlet is not designed for the following electric appliances; they may not work properly:
• Cathode ray tube type televisions
• Motor loads, such as vacuum cleaners, electric saws and other electric power tools,
compressor-driven refrigerators
• Measuring devices, which process precise data, such as medical equipment, measuring
equipment
• Other appliances requiring an extremely stable power supply: microcomputer-controlled electric
blankets, touch sensor lamps

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

The traction battery control module is connected directly to the 12V battery and is the wake up source for the FEH/MMH. When you open the door or cause the dome light to come on with your fob, the brake 12V motor also comes on.

GaryG

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Yeah... thats the typical list one sees for inverters that generate a modified sine wave. Essentially the inverter doesn't create a sine wave output... instead it puts out a step wave that is similar enough to work. Thats pretty typical of inverters, they could clean it up with some RC filtering but that reduces the power output.

It can also be a problem to hook something into such a system that uses a switching power supply (laptops, battery chargers) but frankly I've usually used them without problems in the past, though I haven't tried it with the one in the FEH yet.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Got it now. Thanks.

If I did want to run a medium sized freezer at a remote site, that has a compressor in it, I wonder if one of those "attached under the hood with clamps" type of inverters could produce the proper clean power for it? What brand and model would I look for?

-Christopher S. Johnson (who has learned quite a bit on this thread)

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

A freezer just uses an electric motor to spin the compressor. Most motors will work fine with a decent inverter.

Check the power requirements from the freezer (e.g 1000 watts), then add about 30% for the startup surge current for the motor, and pick up an inverter with that rating. Most 1kw inverters will support 1.3kw for 10-20 seconds. Most inverters specify a startup rating, and a constant rating

However, you should replace the spring clamps to the battery with a direct wired (and fused) connection if you are using more than 4-500 watts from a 12V supply. (1000w/12V = 84Amps, you can get 100A slow-blow fuses from auto supply stores.)

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Hi All

It's been a while since I posted about a patent Ford has, but now that Ford is discussing plug-in charging more, I thought some of you might be interested in reading about this now. As far as I know, the unit has not been released to the public yet. Anyone heard anymore about this unit?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6724100.html

HEV charger/generator unit
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 6724100

Link to this page:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6724100.html

Abstract:
The present invention provides an apparatus, system, and method of utilizing a Home Power Unit ("HPU") which functions as a battery charger for a Hybrid Electric Vehicle ("HEV") or as a generator, utilizing the HEV's electrical power to operate external electrical devices. In its simplest form, the HPU comprises a Transformer, inverter means, rectifier means, a control unit, connection means to the HEV and external electrical loads or sources and switching means to change operation between charger and generator function. Alternative embodiments of the present invention utilize the HEV's existing components thereby avoiding component redundancy within the HPU. Specifically, in the first alternative embodiment, the inverter means are utilized within the vehicle, therefore, requiring only filter and transformer to be added to the vehicle. In the second alternative embodiment, the vehicle's DC-to-DC Converter is utilized as opposed to implementing a transformer. Therefore, only an inverter and filter are added to the system.

See the patent for a much better understanding.

GaryG

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

You can see the full patent on the USPTO (United States Patent & Trademark Office) website.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...100&RS=6724100

You can use their search engine to find other hybrid patents, Ford hybrid patents, and patents that refer to the subject patent 6724100!

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Has anyone established how much power could be pulled from a directly-connected-to-the-12v-battery inverter, to say, power a home during a power outage? I see speculation that a a 2000 watt inverter could be used, but I'm wondering if anyone knows what the actual capacity is, pulling off the battery for a continued time period. Thanks.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Just from the 12v battery alone, or also thru the HV battery or (ICE running) HV generator?

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

My question was assuming the ICE is running at idle, how much current (wattage) can be pulled off the battery continuously? Thanks.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

More than you can get an inverter for!
The generator is rated much higher than any inverter you will find.
The generator can make up to 40,000 watts, but most often runs in the 15,000 watt range.

With the key in, the engine will cycle, and you could probably run any inverter on the market for at least 48 hours.

I run the 150w built in inverter to charge my camera and cell phone while out in the field. I need to run the gas engine for 5 minutes, then the 150w inverter will run for 90 minutes with GAS ENGINE OFF. Repeat as needed.
( Need to move the key to "unstart" the car so engine does not cycle to maintain temperature. )

Do you have the Navigation screen with Hybrid battery display?
That's how I know when to manually start the car.
If you don't have the screen, you'd need to leave the key in run, and let the car cycle on it's own. It normally cycles more often than needed just to keep the catalytic converter hot.

Look at it as watt-hours. You have about 300 watt hours to "spend" between engine cycles. So if you draw 300 watts, you will need to have the gas engine run 5 minutes per hour. If you draw 600 watts, you will need to run the gas engine 5 minutes every 30 minutes. If you draw 1200w you will need to run the gas engine 5 minutes every 15 minutes.

If you pull 2400w, the car will need to run 5 minutes on, 5 minutes off.
This is about what it does to simply maintain temperature.

If you pull much more than that, the car will probably run nearly continuously, but will be capable, but at 14v, you are going to start getting into monster amp draws. 2400w / 14v = 171 amps right there.
You will need wires of about 0 gauge, or double the thickness of most jumper cable wire to handle that kind of amperage.

( Most jumper cable wire is 6 gauge, and can hande 500 amps for 5 seconds, but only 100 amps continuously )

-John

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Thanks, John.

So if I read you correctly, one could pick up, say a 2KW, inverter, bolt it in the engine compartment somewhere, connected to the battery with adequate cables and just plug in to it when you need power to run a furnace or sump pump, etc. in a power outage. That is actually pretty cool and a lot better than having some loud generator screaming away. I have seen 1KW inverters at Costco for less than $100. Maybe a couple of those would do the job.

Tom

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

If I recall correctly, the HV DC to 12V DC converter is rated at 110 amps, so you if you have most of the vehicle 12V loads off, you should be able to draw 90-100 amps of 12V DC voltage. You should be able to run 1000 watts for as long as you have fuel, assuming you have a direct connection to the battery. (Written from somewhere in the middle of Alaska).

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

I did a little digging in the 2006 Escape / Mariner Modifiers Guide - it appears that the max 12 volt output is 110 amps which is 1320 watts.

From the manual:

DC/DC Converter

The DC/DC converter is a liquid-cooled component that converts high voltage (216-397 volts) DC power to low voltage (12 volts) DC power while maintaining electrical isolation between the 2 DC power systems. The converter steps down the high voltage to 12 volts, providing power to the
vehicle low voltage battery systems. The powertrain control module (PCM) controls the operation of the DC/DC converter through an enable input from the PCM to the DC/DC converter.

Generator Output

The Escape/Mariner Hybrid generator is different from that used on the standard Escape/Mariner. The Escape/Mariner Hybrid has a 110 amp generator.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Does the hybrid even have a 12v generator (running off the ICE)?

I thought all its 12v needs came from the HV system, and run thru the DC-DC converter.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

The DC/DC converter is an isolated down converter that replaces the alternator (generator) on conventional vehicles.

The conveter is isolated becuse the high voltage circuits are electrically isolated from chassis ground while the low voltage (+12V) circuits are referenced to the chassis.

The converter is mounted to the passenger side firewall. I think the liquid cooling is from the same cooling circuit as the transaxle HV power controller. THis circuit has its own pump and heat exchanger (radiator) mounted in front of the ICE radiator.

There is also a smaller isolated DC/DC up converter that converts +12V to 320V. THis allows the HV battery to charge from the low voltage system when the HV battery charge is too low to start the ICE.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

For continuous duty, the system appears to support a 1 KW inverter.

If you install a larger inverter (1.5 to 2 kw), you can use the extra capacity to start inductive loads like motors. When a load over 1 KW appears for a short time, the +12V battery provides the extra capacity.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

DavidH, good point re using 2KW for surge capacity. I'm not sure what the consequences of exceeding the alternator output for a long time would be other than a dead battery. There must be some kind of internal protection to the vehicle's inverter.

Re: Hi, need info about using AC/DC plugs
 

Most large inverters will shut down on low battery voltage.