Gary, since you have a lot of time on your hands, go back through the Yahoo archives. I correcty discussed the pros and cons of Neutral driving, and how neutral really works over 7 months ago... Before I even heard of Xcel. I like Wayne.
I spent 2 days with Wayne, met his family, and have stayed at his house. Have you? I have nothing but respect for Wayne.
What you implied is resented.

-John

 

Re: all the stuff that seems to be getting a bit personal - whatever. Leave me out of it.

What I want to know is, John (gpsman), what did you mean by that reference to 6mph (i.e., N doesn't keep ICE off above 6 mph)? I coast in "N" up to 40 mph without the engine coming on (and in the FEH, as you know, you can hear it come on - it's not like the Prius where it might get by you in a noisy environment!), under circumstances (long hill, full battery) where I know it would at least "spin up" (for whatever reason, engine braking or whatever) in D or L. I do this all the time. Are you saying it's not the "N" that's keeping the ICE off? I don't get this.

 

I read again what you wrote. I will state again that what you wrote is wrong. I coasted this morning for over 2/10 of a mile and the ICE stayed off. Maybe what you meant was that eventually, the ICE would come back on but that isn't what you said.

Then you had to throw in the comment about "distinct engineering reasons" as if you are the only one intelligent enough to understand them. Get over yourself. Unlike your "aspiring" to be an engineer, I am one. And there are a hell of a lot of folks on here smarter than you and me. You act like we are all stupid. That is what generates the comments. Not your information, but your arrogant attitude.

As for the 45 mpg tanks week after week, give me the 10% for the altitude, 10% for the 85 octane and the 10% for the tire pressures as you once claimed and I'm there.

 

Ray and John

John, when you got back from the Dearborn trip you picked up alot of info from Ford and xcel apparently. This was when you first posted about the cardboard trick as if you have used it forever. Now I see for the first time it was xcel's idea from your post on GH. Nothing wrong with using his idea but you could have said back then that xcel gave you the trick. With regard to "N" coasting, I gave xcel full credit for that trick even though I ran the test on the FEH. I ran the test for him to help us, and I am so thankful for his insight. Likewise, I'm thankful to Ray and Rich (Pravus Prime) for their insight on the "L" technique.

Not long ago you and I posted back and forth regarding driving in "L". At that time, I determined you didn't fully understand the benifits of coasting. Ray, Rich and Scott drive in "L" and I've had many post like I did with you about coasting in "L" for FE. If you knew that coasting in "N" would give us a 36% increase in coasting over "D", you could have brought this to light on yahoo or GH with past post about FE. Making another comment that you used "N" 7 months ago and for me to go look it up is silly. New people come to these boards everyday and I haven't seen any reminder from you since I've posted on yahoo or GH about "N" coasting. This is big news for all of us, if you knew it then why didn't you share it this past 6 months.

Ray, Johns comments about the less than 6 mph or less in "N" to lock in EV or ICE was a result of me posting that "N" did not lock in those modes. While coasting around town all day long I found that the ICE would start in "N" during EV driving and I could do the double tap under 40 to go EV while I was in "N". John was simply pointing out that he only claimed in past post that the lock only applied under 6 mph.

Driving 2/10 miles in EV may never cause the ICE to start for you unless the battery needs charging, the catalyst get to cold or cabin and battery temp needs adjusting. Trust me, my ICE started up more than a few times since using "N". Same thing the other way, I went EV coasting down from ICE running under 40 all day long while in "N". In my post to you, I said John may be right about this one. Untill I get a ICE start after placing the shifter in "N" in EV under 6mph, I'll assume John is correct.

Our attitudes are starting to interfere with healthy debate now so lets drop it unless you want to come back at me for this post.

GaryG

 

You are right Gary. Attitude off now.....

 

Ray, I just found in the repair manuals where John may have got his information. It says that there are two Neutral Gear Modes, Active Neutral and Passive Neutral. Active Mode is set when you use "N" above 6mph and the ICE or EV can be changed. Passive Neutral is set at 6mph and below and the ICE must remain in the state it was when the mode was entered and is not permitted to change state (start or stop).

Thanks, and lets move on to learning.

GaryG

 

Well you did ask for it.
In the future, I will try to be even more clear, by stating what is proven to be true, or comes from official documentation, and what is a "theory" or "best guess". I hate to eat crow, so I'm usually pretty sure before I claim something.

Most people think I am crazy.... at first.... they come around, eventually!

8 or 9 months ago, people called me a liar when I said I got 38 MPG on one tank. Look what we're talking about now?! 50+

Here's not a guess, not a theory, not a mistake. Here is a fact:
The FEH gas tank can hold 18 gallons. If you are careful, and patient with filling.
We all knew you could top off, shake the car, and top off again. Well, I did that 12 times in a row this week... took me about 20 minutes though!
So now, if I go 800 miles on one tank, is everyone going to call me a liar since they "think" the car will only hold 15 gal?

The point I'm making I guess is... there can be conditions not thought of, that change the paradigm. ( and also, it is impossible to fill the tank the same way 2 times in a row... so a long average is the most "accurate" nunmber. )

Enjoy your Hybrid everyone.
When I bought mine... I never expected it to provide so much entertainment.
I've already saved the cost of the Hybrid in non-movie tickets and bowling nights by staying home and talking to nice folks over the internet. Who Knew???

-John

 

I feel like an idiot, but this is news to me. For those of us just tuning in, could you explain your technique there?

 

You mean the 18 gallons bit?
Yeah... this was a surprise to me also.
Over the months, I noticed inconsistancies with fill ups.
Some tanks seemed really great = higher than expected... while others were a real let down. I always thought filling to the top each time and doing the math would be more accurate than the trip computer for figuring MPG.
Turns out, maybe we should trust the computer more, since us humans can vary how much gas we pump by as much as 3 gallons ( high or low ) without really knowing it.

Most people agree, that after the pump "clicks" if you wait a while, and / or shake the FEH you can put 0.5 to 1.0 gallons more in. Turns out, you can put 3 gallons more in.

I've realized two things.
A: The gas filler tube goes into the SIDE of the tank, not the top.
So if you park on a slant, with the filler tube on the high side, you can fit in more gas.
B: There is a vapor return tube... has to be there when you think about it...
You can't pump liquid in without letting the air out. This tube is like the little overflow drain hole near the top of your bathroom sink. The water still goes down the drain, but takes a different path. I think ( this is theory ) that when you totally fill the filler neck, and you SLOWLY add more gas, the gas can flow down this vapor return tube. This only works when the tank is very, very full, and there's ( practically ) no air left to need to come back up that tube.
Now this won't do anything for more MPG.... but hey, an extra gallon or two might mean you can wait a day or two longer between fillups.

My Concern: It's really not worthwhile. I'm worried people won't be patient enough to do it carefully and not overflow and spill. The real trick is you have to go slow enough to allow the air to come out. Basically, the tank has to burp every 0.20 gal when you get near the very top.

How did I figure this out? By accident! I had just filled up with ( nearly ) 15 gallons at the station, then drove home. I had 3 gallons left in a 5 gallon container in the Garage ( for lawnmower, etc... ). Knowing that I wouldn't need to use the Lawnmower until April, and that gas doesn't stay "fresh" for more than a few months, I figured I would slowly get rid of the lawnmower gas by adding a little to each tank over the next few weeks.

To my surprise, the FEH took the whole 3 gallons, 2.5 miles after a filling station fill-up.

-John

 

There does seem to be a space within the gas tank that gets filled at times and cannot be filled at other times. Normally, you can only put 2 1/2 gallons in at the 3/4 mark on the fuel gauge. When I get 100 miles at the 3/4 tank mark, I generally know I made around 40mpg at that point. If I'm at 115 miles at 3/4, I,m getting around 46mpg. I have got as much as 170 miles at the 3/4 mark which would be 68mpg, which is imposible for me at this time. I was at around 70 miles when the fuel tank gauge needle dropped off the full mark. If I get to 45-50 miles as the needle drops off the full mark and I'm at 115 miles at 3/4 tank, I'm usually getting 45-46 mpg at fill up.

We all know at 0 MTE, you have about 50 miles or more to go. What I think is happening is the computer sees that you burned 15 gallons of fuel and indicates there is 0 MTE. The fuel over the 15 gallons is gas thats above the tank sensor, a little over one gallon of gas. This would be the extra fuel we all normally get at a fill up. Now, if you add that amount of fuel that fills the other area (air pocket) that John is talking about, you get over the 15 gallons of fuel stated in the manual.

I'v parked on angles, shaken the FEH and always add gas slowly to get a correct reading on MPG. Averaging the tanks is always required. In my opinion, it's not 3 gallons more with a total of 18 gallons as John feels. Based on my mileage and fill ups, I put it at 16.5 - 17 gallons max or 1 1/12 to 2 gallons over the 15 gallons. This would put that hard to fill space at 1 - 1 1/2 gallons max. According to my mileage, the hard to fill space is no more than 1 gallon though.

In the FEH manuals and other documents, I have read that there is a vapor area that sensors monitor and can produce trouble codes if the overfill doesn't clear after a certain time. Never had that happen but I would be concerned if I kept that overfill to a max with the lawnmower gas.

Not sure if this is going to increase your MTE reading, but I can say don't let someone like my daughter take your FEH on a long trip if your trying.

GaryG