Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

Well, I've read many different threads which adress some of my own issues, but I'm not sure how the various factors relate and I am looking for some input from those with experience.
The big question is whether or not purchasing the Highlander Hybrid is the right choice. We own a "monster truck" - 3/4 ton Yukon XL as the family vehicle. With 4 kids under 10 and 2 dogs we need a decent amount of space and needed the towing capacity for a travel trailer. We live in Northern BC and our roads are basically ice covered for 5 months, making AWD more than an indulgence. We both work so we have seperate personal vehicles. We are now replacing my wife's VW Beetle which works for her but is useless for any kid transport as it has a fixed baby seat and only one other rear seat. We decided to get a 6-7 passenger vehicle which would replace almost all of the truck use in town so fuel efficiency was primary and the HiHy was the obvious choice in that regard, but having read the limitations, are not sure if our real world gains are worth the $$.
The parameters are as follows:
Driving is about 90% stop and go city driving with trips about 4.5 miles each way. Sometimes drop and return, other times, drop and wait.
The city is a bowl formed by the last ice age, so we drop about 500' into town from our home but rise 500' coming back.
Up here is gets cold. Today was the first time in 3 weeks that temperatures rose above freezing.
We will keep the new car in the garage. All cars come with block heaters installed up here.
My understanding so far is as follows. City driving is the Hybrid's strong suit as is going down long hills.
Cold, short trips and uphills reduce the effectiveness of the Hybrid. (These also have effects for an ICE. Is there a difference of scale?)
The bottom line here is whether or not we can expect the mileage gains the EPA ratings for the ICE VS HY suggest. We know we are unlikely to save money, but rather would like to see our carbon footprint reduced. If we are better off spending the $$ to install a solar hot water heating system for example, we may choose that. The advantage here is the fact that instead of 1-2 mpg gains seen with compacts, with bigger vehicles the gas savings take on a magnitude of scale. Here, the HY saves .022 gallons every mile over the ICE based on the EPA numbers. That makes it worthwhile to us. Question is, can we realistically expect those gains in our situation? Any and all comments or responses welcomed.

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

Hi,

A couple of clarifications?
You are keeping the Yukon?

Is this just to replace the Beetle, more of a Civic or possibly Prius class vehicle?

Is this a replace the Yukon and Beetle decision?

Sounds like a reasonable hybrid profile although the 4.5 miles is a little short. Double that distance really lets the hybrid architecture shine.

You've pretty well got the basics.

I'm not sure I understand what vehicles are being replaced. If you are proposing to go from a two vehicle family to one, I'm not sure you would be happy with any replacement. If the Yukon can be retained as the 'trailer' vehicle for another couple of years, I would recommend looking at either the Highlander and/or the Ford Escape. Both come with all wheel drive and I know the Ford Escape has excellent performance characteristics in our climate. I don't know enough about the Highlander to do a head-to-head comparison but Toyota makes very fine vehicles. But given two adults and four growing kids, an Escape would be less bad than the Beetle but soon not meet your needs for family travel. Still, it would be very practical for one parent and 2-3 of the kids and 4 in a crunch.

Let me suggest looking at the problem as two sets of requirements:

1. run around town vehicle - may not need to carry everyone but allow one parent to handle the kids on short trips
2. everybody, vacation vehicle - carries everyone, the critters and trailer for getting away from town. May be used for Church or other, infrequent, whole family trips

The "everybody" vehicle does not have to be fuel efficient since its annual mileage will significantly decrease. A 'moving van', it just has to handle the infrequent, load everyone up trips.

The "city" vehicle needs to be optimized since it is likely to see the greatest use. As the kids grow up, they are less and less likely to see common destinations other than say church or school. Even school probably has alternative transportation solutions that might be considered.

Sorry I can't be much more help. The oldest of five brothers, we used an International Harvester Travelall in the 1960s filling all seats. Once, we even squeezed two families into the same vehicle (and I remember the oldest girl to this day.)

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

Well, I tried to keep the post from getting too long. Here's the clarification. We are a 3 vehicle family - my Impreza, her Beetle, and the family Yukon XL which is often driven by our nanny. The nature and schedule of our jobs requires a vehicle each. The Yukon isn't going anywhere - no other real options for what it does. We are trying to relegate it to very limited duty ie. when everyone and a large amount of gear are going somewhere. We have decided to replace the Beetle with a smaller 6-7 passenger to achieve this goal. The Highlander is the front-runner here. The big issue was whether or not the HiHY would see the real world gains in our situation over the ICE Highlander that the EPA numbers suggest. If it does, it will be worth the extra $$ (Toyo dealers throughout BC will only sell the HY for msrp). If our driving habits are likely to degrade Hybrid performance much more than ICE performance and we won't see much benefit, then as stated we'd put cash towards a different project.

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

Hi,
Thanks, I wanted to get the big picture and this clarifies everything.

Based upon what you'd previously posted with assumption of ~5 mi. trips with 'engine cool off' stops, it will be hard, even impossible to meet the EPA numbers, especially in the winter even with a block heater. The primary reason is the EPA tests are of 30 minute duration. If you are driving 5 miles in 30 minutes, that is an average speed of 10 mph. I find my 20 minute commute just long enough to get my Prius to give efficient numbers and I live Alabama.

However, I would defer to any data points posted by Highlander, Ford or Lexus drivers. But very short trips and cold weather hit the current hybrid architectures pretty hard.

Bob Wilson

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

I agree with Bob. Given the short distances you are describing, I doubt you will see much savings from the hybrid. For a time I lived in Boston and had a 2 mile commute. In the winter (when I wasn't about to walk) I saw my all time low of 23 mpg on a tank.

That compares to my winter driving in CO. My 13 mile trip to work gives me around 28 mpg. It wasn't any colder there than here. During the summer it is much higher (~35).

So, if you are looking for some kind of payback, you are unlikely to get it out of the HiHY. Just my $0.02.

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

Still, if I'll see mid twenties overall in winter, that still beats 17mpg EPA for the regular Highlander, and I'd expect that 17mpg to drop at least 20% in our winter driving environment. My concern was we might drop to less than 20mpg throughout the winter.

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

Note that I have the Escape Hybrid, so no apples to apples here.

You might certainly beat the EPA for the highlander, but I got the impression that you were expecting something more dramatic. Of course I could be misinterpreting.

The kind of driving you described is basically as bad as it gets for the hybrid. If you are wanting a hybrid for reasons of economics then it doesn't sound justified. There are a number of other reasons that could affect your decision. You want to reduce your fuel usage but still drive a larger vehicle. You want to encourage the auto industry to move toward efficiency.

So I guess the decision is yours. Would you see real gains? Probably. Would they pay off the extra cost? Probably not given your descriptions. As much as I like hybrids, and as glad as I am that I bought mine, not everyone can justify one by overall cost.

Good luck!

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

In the world of 'managing user expectations,' it will always out perform the gas equivalent vehicle. But cold weather and short trips will not achieve even the recent EPA ratings.

In January, I took a 400 mile, 800 miles round trip, to South Carolina. I left at 4:30 AM in 18F weather it warmed to ~39F and then back to 21F when I got home at 10:00 PM. During the trip, my mileage followed the temperatures in direct proportion to the higher air density. The worst was ~47 MPG in the early morning and late evening. My best on that trip was ~52 MPG when the temperatures were between 35-40F.

Cold doesn't make a hybrid work worse than the gas equivalent, just not as good as the EPA numbers, which are done on a "standard day," ~70F.

Bob Wilson

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

I really do not think the HiHy is justified in your situation.
It is not often that I steer people away from Hybrids because I like them so much... but really, to save gas... well... you're out of luck with what you need. Now, if you could get by with the HiHy for those summertime long family vacations ( the HiHy can tow... 3500 pounds? ) then you will be much happier over the Yukon.

Of worthy note... I don't think the Highlanders are that big.
They are more of a station wagon than SUV. yes?

What about a mini-van with AWD? I think those are best for large families... with soon to be pre-teen and teen age kids. How long do you traditionally keep vehicles? I think you may out-grow a Highlander before you wear out a Highlander. I think the Ford Escape is a much better value for the money also... but is even smaller. Good Luck,

Re: Sorry, another "Should I buy the Hybrid" thread
 

I understand the hybrid Yukon is out and there is one report that some of the dealers may have a demo available. There is one report of a demo unit in Texas.

Perhaps you could call around the Canadian GM dealers to see if one is available. This would probably be your best bet. The only drawback is they are asking for +$50K (USA) . . . that is what, $12.95 (Canadian?). Just another option that might be available.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson