ima battery replacement
 

Has anyone had to do this yet? At what mileage and age did it require replacement. Was it under warranty or out of pocket. I'm just curious how long these last. By my understanding, the technology is similar to a cell phone battery, which for me, only last a few years.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Don't panic, the HCH is designed to maximize battery life, unlike a cell phone.

I hear reports of about 7 years predicted from battery research articles.
I think Honda warrants them for 10/100k in CA so we can hope for better.

HCH's aren't that old yet, but Insights are pretty close I think.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Yeah, but remember that it isn't a FULL 10 year/100K warranty. After a certain amount of years (I forget how many), it becomes a pro-rated charge.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

I called my Honda and they said that they have only had to do it one time and the cost was $2,400 and that was it was very recently.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

From Honda.com

Q: How long does the battery pack last?
A: The battery pack is designed to last 10 years under normal driving conditions. Its battery pack comes with an 8-year/80,000-mile warranty and all emissions-related equipment comes with a more extensive warranty. See your dealer for details.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

I do pretty well in my hch without using the assist very much because it only comes on when I floor it or a steep hill. So... what if, when the batteries wear out, I just don't replace them. Still taking advantage of the small engine, the cylineer shutdown and such. It might still be a great FE car with bad batteries. ???

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Probably, but without the IMA accelleration would almost be dangerously slow in some situations. :) I think it would get around though.

When I bought my 03, the story from the salesman was that while the packs were currently about $3000 (in 03) to replace, Honda projected that by the time the pack needed replacement (2013) the cost should be around $500-600. Seemed reasonable enough to me even if he was only half right. A $1000 repair on a 10-year old car is not totally out of the ordinary.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

The number 1 concern from people who are looking to buy a new car and considering a hybrid seems to be, "How much will it cost to replace the battery?" With people like Rush Limbaugh telling his followers that it will cost $8,000 to replace the battery pack, public misperception will always be there. His followers will continue buying a new Pontiac or a Monte Carlo and end up paying more for repairs than the HCH owner will pay.
I guess it boils down to trust. I trust Honda and Toyota know what they are doing because of their track record for quality, regardless of what makes the car go forward.
The hybrid dissenters are usually the Buy American crowd that can't admit that Honda/Toyota/Nissan are kicking their butts (e.g. Rush Limbaugh & followers).

Re: ima battery replacement
 

In my warranty book for the 2006 HCH it says;
Integrated Motor Assist System (IMA)
Battery Assembly (included all internal components) 10/150

it also stipulates Federal & PZEV, also states, Ca. Ct, Ma, ME, Ny, Vt.

Why buy extended warranty?
To cover the Trans, and ac components I guess.
I mean 10 years? 150,000 miles is a long time folks.
Are you going to own that car that long?

I firmly believe the battery and components will last a very long time.
I am planning to keep my car 4 to 5 years.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Right wing talk shows like Rush do themselves a disservice by dismissing hybrids, recycling, etc. as the work of "environmental wackos". I remember one of his books he boasted was "100% unrecycled". His environmental spots at one time has a chainsaw soundbite. Doesn't the word conversation have the word conservative it it?

You bet I'd like to buy American, but Detroit has neglected all but the truck/SUV market. If a GM Saturn was at least 90% as good as an Accord, I'd probably get it. Ditto for the Geo Metro over the Insight (bad comparison since the Metro is built in S Korea).

Re: ima battery replacement
 

This is a common misunderstanding when reading the standard warranty book. And Honda is really to blame for not making it clearer. In the book under the heading "Battery", they are talking about the 12V battery under the hood, not the IMA battery. But most people when they read this section think it's about the IMA battery. Even dealers believe and tell people the IMA battery is pro-rated. No, it's the 12V battery that's pro-rated after 3 years, just like most other car batteries.

Just keep reading till you get to the VERY last page of the warranty book where it lists the specific hybrid-IMA warranties. It lists the states (including California) where it has a full 10yr/150K warranty.
In the rest of the states it is a full 8 yr/80k warranty.
No pro-rating in either case.

Had a Hybrid Battery Replacement: Honda Covered 90%
 

A three months ago, I had the IMA light go on just shy of 94,000 miles. Lute Riley Honda in Richardson Texas quoted me $6,500 to replace the battery pack, BCM and MCM units. I paid $450 and a rental car at commercial rate - Honda covered the rest. Heard horror stories of 1-2 months to get the battery - mine came back in nine days.

This is a 2000 5-speed Insight. The batteries and units are better, so I think another 150,000 miles (when the car gets to 250,000) is realistic. The new software does not allow the battery charge to get so low. I think the low point is now 40% - not 15% (someone verify please). Anyway, I had my 12-volt battery go dead 2-3 times. When it did, the hybrid battery pack also went dead (at least according to the display). This must have shortened the life.

What I'll do is never let the 12-volt battery go dead, and limit the assist boosts to 30 seconds. So far, my battery pack has not recaled. :)

Re: ima battery replacement
 

That is a really good point. I also drive in ways that limit assist usage, hoping to prolong IMA battery life, I pay a slight mpg penalty, but figure it will be worth it in the long run.

Also, wrt driving the car on a dead IMA battery, with the Insights at least this is problematic (I don't know if the HCH's are similar but probably). There is no alternator in the Insight, it depends on the IMA system to charge the 12v battery, and the charging function is disabled by a dead IMA battery.

In the Insight forum there is a guy who recently reported trying to live without his IMA battery when it died. He lasted about 2 weeks before getting sick of charging his 12v battery every day. I think it died on him once and that was the last straw for him.

Here is the thread:

https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...tery.5734.html

Re: Had a Hybrid Battery Replacement: Honda Covered 90%
 

This is consistent with what I've observed in my 03 HCH. It begins charging the IMA off the engine at about the 50% depleted mark (could just as easily be 40% due to display error). Even with some 20 mile long up-hill climbs I've had, it never drained lower that 5-6 bars. At that level, even under modest to more-than-modest accelleration, the IMA did not assist. I almost have to floor it to get an assist. The car seems very protective of the IMA batteries, for lack of a better way to describe it. :)

Re: Had a Hybrid Battery Replacement: Honda Covered 90%
 

Gosh, in my '04 CHC it would go down to one or two bars.
Now, on my '06 HCH, it never fills all the way or goes down all the way, pretty much stays near the middle mark all the time.

Jessica

Re: ima battery replacement
 

To clarify, when discussing the low point 15% vs. 40%, what is meant is when the display reads zero, how much is actually left in the batteries. There is no way to measure that by observing the display.

I am not aware of NiMH's being harmed by going to zero however, the only reason I can think of are the voltage drop, and the cell variation, where some cells would be empty and other cells would force current through them, which is known to cause damage in NiMH's. So, to avoid those problems, the HCH leaves a reserve at the bottom.

Overcharging at the top is a definite NiMH killer, they cannot accept charge at high rates past about 80% full, so the HCH has a reserve at the top and will stop charging when the upper reserve is met. Again cell variation is a problem so the upper reserve point is likely to be lower than 80% when the meter shows a full battery.

So if your meter swings from full bars to zero bars, theoretically the battery only went from the upper reserve to the lower reserve point, figure less than half the rated capacity of the battery (6500mah on the HCH-I, don't know what it is on the HCH-II). So a 10% swing on the meter, is about a 5% swing in the actual battery capacity.

I recently discovered that the NiMH batteries that the HCH's use are rated for about 100k 5% swings, which compares very favorably with consumer NiMH batteries rated at 1000 full discharge cycles. Many small swings occur in normal driving. A naive calculation shows that 27 5% swings per day would yield 10 years of life. Accellerating gently from a stop to say 35 mph does not use 10% of my meter, although perhaps two of those would.

Course if I floor it and do a 0-65 leadfoot, I can use 30% of the meter in one go. :-)

I also used to have a problem with sustained hill climbing on my commute, if I camped in 5th gear, the display would drop to 4 bars every time before the charge cycle would start. My solution was simply to downshift. I don't think the CVT has this problem, although if you do have daily wild swings you could try 'S' (sport?) on hills to see if things improve.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

There are some steep hills here in California that can drain your battery all the way down to 3 bars if you use the assist, and on the way up to Vegas as well.q

Re: ima battery replacement
 

If what you're saying is accurate then my HCHII, at least, doesn't have the same reserve behavior on the Full end of the cycle and the Empty end of the cycle. The SOC gauge often goes to the top of the scale, i.e. it shows a full charge. Perhaps that means that the batteries are only 80% full. But then I'd expect the same to happen on the low end - the gauge should go to empty or near empty while there is a hidden reserve of 20% or 40% or whatever Honda chose. But in fact, the IMA has never allowed my charge to drop below four bars on the gauge. When it gets down to four bars the IMA refuses to provide any more assist and it often will force charging even when the engine is struggling up a steep slope. So, is it reasonable to think that Honda designed a hidden reserve on the top end but not on the bottom end?

I normally cycle between 100% charge and 40% charge every day because of the terrain - a steep climb up to my house. And sitting in my garage, the batteries are usually at 40% charge.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

As best we understand it there is still a hidden reserve at each end of the meter. Reasons for why those last 4 bars remain are a mystery. My guess is that if you were to floor it up a steep sustained hill you could get at those last 4 bars, or at least a few of them. It may be a reserve for emergency accelleration. Sort of a visible reserve above the hidden one.

When you are coming up the hill, and get to the last 4 bars, try flooring it briefly and see if the assist comes on, it would be an interesting experiment. Other people here have reported getting below 4 bars, but rarely.

This is only opinion, but I don't want to be a fearmonger about pack swings either. I think fears of battery dying are overstated, even if you have large daily pack swings like I used to. And the warranty is excellent so we are taken care of nicely anyway.

Moderation With the Assist
 

I don't live in fear the battery pack will go in another 90,000 miles, but neither do I attempt to push the envelope.

My two recommendations is periodically check the 12-volt battery and avoid over using the assist with agressive driving.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Yes, I can get it to grudgingly give me a little more assist. It will go to three or four bars of assist, max, and when I let off the gas because I don't want to go more than 40 in a 25 zone, it starts to regen with a vengeance.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

I'm not so worried about the battery in my '06 HCH for two reasons:

1) If I drove the car long enough for the battery to go south, I'm fairly confident that by that time the cost and efficiency of replacement batteries (aftermarket even) will improve dramatically.

and

2) By the time the battery wears out, I'll be driving another state-of-the-art/current 80-90mpg hybrid, and the illegal aliens here in So. Cal will get stuck fixing the battery in my (then) old-style hybrid. More power to 'em (to coin a phrase/pun).

Heh Heh....

Re: ima battery replacement
 

You've paid for the price difference (hybrid vs non hybrid)in gas savings by 5 years; 3+ more years gives you enough savings to buy a 2 pack of IMA batteries at Sam's or Cosco (I'm sure they will have them by then; you may need help hauling them out to your car) and still have something left over!

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Purchased the 2005 Civic Hybrid in NY. Was one of the few that was the PZEV version usually sold in Ca. Well long story short I have put 155k commuting miles on the car and given the recent gas price spike I can say that the car saved me alot of money. I had the car in for a routine scan on what I thought was an emissions issue (turned out to be a loose gas cap) when the dreaded P1433 code came up. My dealer informed me that indeed the IMA battery was failing. $2500 repair . Warranty on the PZEV is 10 years/150k. I called American Honda to see if they could help. Pretty lousy to fail 4 years and 5k over the limit don't you agree? I'll know in a couple of days if Honda will do the right thing and honor or maybe just assist with this repair.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Hopefully though you will still come out ahead! I thought the logic, at least part of it, was to economize by driving a hybrid, not "break even" with exhorbitant battery replacement down-the-road.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

My old 06 HCHII's battery needed a replacement at 105k miles. Where as my 05 HCHI is getting a battery replaced as we speak at 69k miles.

The HCHII didn't have a CEL or IMA light, but the constant forced discharge of the battery required the battery to be replaced.

The HCHI has a CEL and IMA light on.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

If it didn't have a CEL or IMA light, how do they KNOW it needed to be replaced? If you go in under warranty period, they hardly give you the time of day without a CEL of some sort. I tried repeatedly to get them to try and fix my frequent battery discharges, and the only thing they were willing to do was upgrade the software. The most current version has cut my battery crashes significantly, but I still have them occationally.

Did you pay for your replacement, or did Honda pick up part of the cost?

Re: ima battery replacement
 

I should have been more clear. I had a friend source a battery for me and replace it after a failed attempt at the dealership. This was significantly cheaper than going through Honda.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Lugee, were you involved in the replacement process?

I've read through the Service Manual, and it doesn't seem too involved: take out back seat, turn off a very prominent on/off switch (important step, lol), and then a few more steps, but nothing really involved or tricky. Bottom line, maybe one hour labour, taking your time and being very careful.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Interesting. So has that fixed your problem, or do you still have an occaisional recal? There is one school of thought that frequent recals are mostly software/environment related, and if you still had them, it would support that theory. However, if they are gone after the replacement, it would show that your original battery really had something wrong with it--just not wrong enough to throw a CEL.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Lugee,
Any chance you could share the source? A less expensive source would be music to one's ears if faced with a replacement.
Thanks.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Hi all. I just bought a used 2003 HCH and am in the process or rebalancing the IMA cells. This is actually pretty easy to do with the right charger/conditioner. I also found some good sources on procedures to use and am also very techie myself so I can fill in any "blanks" easily. Anyone have some experiences at rebalancing they care to share?

I was also wondering if Lugee ever told anyone who his pack replacement source was? Just in case I need one.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Let me ask my friend where he got the replacement. You should be able to get it at any auto salvage yard.

I have a lot of knowledge about cars and have tools, if anyone has money and time maybe we can all get together and do a tutorial.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Thanks but I was hoping for a new pack like Honda would sell but for a lot less than $2600. LOL I know that the salvage yards around me want $500 for old packs. And I found a guy in NYC who will sell individual used subpacks for $50 ea + shipping. He claims he tests each one for proper function.

Today I started the disassembly of my pack. All went well and according to plan until the testing part came along: As I put each subpack to the load test to find the weak cells it turns out that all of them are about equally in ok shape. I am coming to suspect that I was told wrong and there is nothing wrong with my battery pack after all.

This is what I found so far about each subpack: The starting voltage was 8.0 - 8.1 volts. Under a 10 amp load it dropped to 7.2 and held pretty steady for a count of 15. Then I bumped it up to 30 amps and watched the volts drop to 6.5 in a few seconds. Then the volts recovered quickly to 7.9 when I stopped the testing. No over heating or smoke (sorry folks, LOL) After all this, the subpacks were holding steady at 7.9 volts. None dropped faster or more than the others (dropping like a stone is what I expected to see if any were bad.) So that is what makes me think all are in good shape at present.

Does anyone here know exactly what code P1449 means? I was told it had to do with the IMA battery but that is all I got. I need to know exactly what Honda says it means so I can figure out what is going on and not waste a bunch more effort on things that don't need to be taken apart. LOL. Not that I mind much, this is what I do for fun these days. ;-) I will also be going to the local Honda dealer to ask q's there on Monday. However, I don't expect much in the way of good answers. In the past I have found that dealers are more into taking my money on easy-work services than providing decent free answers. Maybe I can at least get a cup of tea, huh? LOL!:cool:

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Well Mike I hope someone can tell you what that code means. If not try clean mpg.com. Hal

Re: ima battery replacement
 

The service manual lists 3 things for P1449 on the '03 model:

Battery Module Overheating
Battery Cell Overheating
Battery Module Deterioration

Their "fix" is to replace the IMA battery. They aren't as adventurous as you are.

Maybe make sure your battery cooling fan is working correctly.
You might be able to check with the guy in NY; maybe you could run your numbers by him & see what his opinion is.

Re: ima battery replacement
 

Thanks for the confirmation on the code meanings. Yes, "replace and charge lots of money" seems to be all dealers are good for anymore. They seldom even care that what they do doesn't even solve the root problems! I guess I can't really blame them though. They exist to take in money and pay out as little as possible. If the dealer even tried to do like I am, the price tag would go way past the cost of replacing the pack (which they are paid back for by the factory if it is under warranty still) and then hoping the warranty runs out soon so they can sell you a new pack with a big mark-up in price. LOL!

Your suggestion on the cooling fan is a good one. My neighbor (who is a master mechanic, just not with hybrid cars) suggested the same thing this morning when he saw me with my head in the car's trunk tracing the path the cooling air follows (which BTW is sucked into the trunk, but how it get out again is a mystery. This probably goes far in explaining why the battery is getting the 1449 overheat code.) I believe I will be drilling some new air holes for the battery box later too. LOL

So I took out the battery box cooling fan out today and either it doesn't work (which is weird since the computer didn't throw a code for it) or I can't figure out how to make the **** thing turn on without everything being put back together again (I hate all the needless electronic BS in simple electrical devices these days! Why the hell does a electric motor for a fan need a **** circuit board for! A simple heat sensing swt would do it better for less money and trouble too! Grrr!) I will need to look into that fan more, or just run around with the back seat out! LOL

I am also going to try "deep cycling" a subpack to 3 volts min and then recharge it to 8v again 3 times in order to restore most of the capacity of the stick. A battery book I have recommends this procedure for NiCd batteries which are kissing cousins of NiMh batteries. However this will need to be done the "old fashioned way" with my old fashion battery load tester and the charger/conditioner I already have. But I sure wish the guy I bought the car from had bought the same charger/conditioner everyone on these hybrid sites talks about. I guess if worse comes to worse I will need to go find the name of it again and shop for the right charger. :-(

Re: ima battery replacement
 

There has to be a exhaust for the pack cooling system! Hal

Re: ima battery replacement
 

my IMA light has been on constantly for about 3 months now. Sadly enough. it is 120K and no warranty. the Dealer said $2000 to replace it.:(

Re: ima battery replacement
 

How is the car running otherwise Kat? Have you noticed your FE being lower? Is your engine battery being charged? Is the car not worth spending $2000 to repair? Was this the total cost IE Pack and labor? Other things cost this much or more to repair! Just curious.:D Hal