New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Hello,

My husband and I are new owners of a brand new 2007 Civic Hybrid. We just purchased it 2 days ago and so far we absolutely love driving it.

We do have one issue however and we’re hoping someone here can let us know if this is normal or if we should be concerned.

Once the car is warmed up and the engine shuts off at stops, we noticed that when we begin to accelerate again there is a shudder and sometimes a hard buck, as if the transmission isn’t catching gears properly. I realize that this is not possible because it is a CVT but that is what it feels like. And just to clarify, the car is not actually bucking multiple times, it's more like one hard jolt.

This problem seems to occur most often when we step on the gas within a split-second of the engine shutting off at a stop (or when coming to a stop and reaccelerating). I hope this explanation makes sense.

The demo/test car that we drove extensively did not do this. Is there a problem with our new car?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Yeah my car does this, though I rarely encounter it. Most of the time it has occurred was when I'm pulling up to a red light that I want to make a right turn on where there is a car in the left lane. I coast down where the engine shuts off right when I can just see over the hood of the neighboring car and seeing it's just clear enough (but not totally clear), stepping on the gas and then the jolt. Not much you can do in that situation but in others (like just coming to a stop at a light and it just turns green) just letting go of the brake long enough for the engine to kick back on by itself before stepping on the gas helps.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

I found when I first started driving the car I was rushing things too much. Try not to pay too much attention to the engine stopping and drive normal, its pretty smart!!! If I am in a situation where I don't want the engine to stop I.E. entering the garage, or turning left in front of trafic I allways shift into drive two, that way the engine will not stop! Hope this helps you and it is a great car, enjoy.:angel:

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Thank you for your replies. They are reassuring however we are still a bit concerned.

The jolt happens every time we drive the car - whether we are taking care not to let off the brake and step on the gas too quickly, or whether we are just driving normally and not paying attention.

When it happens the first thing that comes to mind is "this can't be good for the car". It's quite a jolt and it definitely feels like something is not as it should be.

Anyone else experience this before on a regular basis?

Can anyone else offer additional reassurance that this is normal?

Other than this problem we love the car and can't wipe the smiles off our faces when we drive it.

Thanks!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Bring the car back, have the service manager come along for a ride. Show him the problem. See what he thinks.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

This happens in my '07 as well. I call it the "Grumble and lurch". I don't notice it so much anymore - I think I'm just used to it. I do try to pause more between lifting my foot off the brake and pressing the accelerator.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

I agree with livvie, take the service guy for a ride if this is happening all the time. The jolt is really unpleasant the few times I have encountered it such that at first when I'm in autostop I either wait to see the tach start moving or hear the engine revving up before stepping on the gas. Nowadays I just take it easy going from brake to gas and it's not been a problem.

Does it still jolt if you let the car creep a lil before stepping on the gas? The CVT is a belt driven system and it sounds like it's slipping on initial acceleration. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but maybe the tensioning mechanism is a tad off and applying extra tension too late.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

I would have it looked at! I have never had my HCH make a noice of any kind. Post the outcome, Thanks.:angel:

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

My '07 did that in around the 2000-3000 mile range - It stopped after I started letting my foot off of the brake slowly as if it were a clutch. It is now perfect and I just don't think about it, because it does not happen anymore. It is worth a shot - it worked for me.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

I think for now we will try to adjust the way we drive to see if we can prevent it from happening.

If it continues we will take it back to the dealership to see what they think. If it turns out to be something wrong we will definitely post it here.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Once in a great while I feel a jerk like the one you describe, only when hurridly accelerating from a stop. It's happened perhaps 4 or 5 times in the last 18 months or so- which makes me think that this is not the same problem that you have. It sounds to me as if the difficulty you are describing may not be quite the same one that other people here are dealing with by changing the way they release the brake. I hope that the people at the dealership are able to help you, because you shouldn't have to put up with something like that.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

i am not a technical person, but i notice that when i let off the brake from a stop, it takes a second for the forward motion to begin on its own, without pressing the gas pedal. once i feel it "engage", i can accelerate normally. if i hit the gas before this engagement, i get a lurch. is this what you are describing?
i think it has something to do with the cylinders closing during autostop and opening back up when you let off the brake. you need to give it that second for the closed cylinders to open.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Whew! I thought I was the only problem that had this problem with My 07 Civic Hybrid. I talked to my Service Advisor and he said this is a "normal" problem with all the Honda hybrids. He said it has something to do with the big magnets that engages the engine and transmission after the "auto stop" kicks in. He let me borrow a brand new hybrid and it did exactly what my car did. He also had the mechanic loosen and tighten the transmission mount which kind of helped. It only happens when I release the brake pedal real fast and stomp on the gas pedal. Try releasing the brake pedal slower during the break in period and that should "seat the magnets".

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Hi,

Thanks again to all who replied.

Well, the problem persisted and we took the car back to the dealership. But first let me recap and sort of revise the way I described the problem initially.

The "jolt" (actually we now call it "harsh engagement") occurs most often when you are rolling to a stop with your foot on the break. Once the gas engine shuts off and the IMA light starts blinking WHILE THE CAR CONTINUES ROLLING, the problem occurs just as the brake pedal is released BEFORE stepping on the gas.

Example: If you're slowing down for a red light and your foot is on the brake and you are almost at a stop, the engine shuts off but the car is still rolling, the traffic light turns green, you release the brake and the car jolts very roughly.

This problem does not occur as often after the car has come to a complete stop and the brake pedal released, but it does happen occasionally.

So anyway, the service manager took it for a test drive and said that he felt what we were talking about. He suggested that we drive the car for another couple hundred miles and if the problem persists or worsens, to bring it back in. He said to give the car a chance to "break in" and that he believes it will improve over time. So far we only have about 300 miles on the car.

I'm not so sure we're happy with that answer but we're going to follow the recommendation for now. But if the problem does persist we're definitely taking it back because it is very unnerving and we feel that it shouldn't be happening on a brand new car.

Will post again as things progress.

Thanks!

PS) As for gas mileage, we've been getting about 36.5 for the last week or so. The best mileage we got was the day we bought the car - 45.6. But we haven't been ablt to break 40 since. It has been very cold though.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Thanks for the update! Yeah, the cold weather and the fact that you're breaking in a new car (which is behaving strangely) are probably to blame for your sub-par mileage. Too bad! I wish you better luck with it in the future. I know that other people have reported odd results during the break-in period, but that jerking sensation- not pleasant. I can understand your hesitation about following the service guy's advice, but if it does go away on its own, that would probably be the best possible result, right? So I'm hoping for the best for you!
Take care. :)

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

you could meet w/ another owner in your area, and take a ride in their car for comparison purposes, to see what "normal" is. if you let us know what area you live in, i'm sure someone will step forward to help.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

I agree. There is certainly a different "feel" under the condition you describe. I'm totally used to it and expected it. Your harsh engagement may be *more* harsh than others', and may need an adjustment. It is the gas engine starting up and meshing with the CVT transmission WHILE the car is rolling. It's trying to do an RPM-match kind of thing - sort of like downshifting a manual tranny without slowing down the vehicle. If you're near DFW (Texas), I'd be happy to compare rides!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

i'm at 600 miles already and it's much smoother now. :)

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Hi,

We are in the South Jersey area but thanks for the kind offers. Actually we're thinking about going back to the dealership to test drive the HCHII demo again, just to see.

On a more positive note, we went for a long drive on the highway this past weekend and got our mileage up to 44.4mpg (according to the display). That made us real happy. :)

Again, if this turns out to be a defect with our car we will post the findings here on this thread.

Thanks!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Aha- going back for another test drive- brilliant! Saves having to find someone local, that's for sure. Let us know how it goes!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Hi,

Okay... we did what the dealership told us to do and the problem is not going away. In fact, it's getting worse. We will be taking it back to the dealership in the next week or two.

My biggest fear is that it won't run properly or perform optimally once they start taking things apart. After reading these boards it seems that if the car's systems are even slightly off it can throw the mpgs off and then it's hard for the dealer to pinpoint exactly what's wrong.

Keeping our fingers crossed.

Bean

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Good luck with that. My car has done that too. Actually mine does a variation of that when you're rolling slowly (usually around 20,000) miles, you feel the tranny doing something weird. Which reminds me, I need to take it in.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Keeping our fingers crossed for you, too! I don't know why your dealer is having trouble figuring out what's wrong- most of the problems people seem to report here end up having straightforward solutions (though of course it's always aggravating and sometimes time consuming- no different than anything else). If there is a way for them to fix it, are you going to keep the hybrid, or are you going to try to return it? I guess that probably depends on what kind of fix it is, and how long it all takes.

Good luck!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Thanks for the replies.

Leah, thanks for pulling for us. It's not that the dealer can't figure out the problem - they did acknowledge that there is a harsh engagement. They made a recommendation to continue driving the car to break it, which they said would correct the problem. It hasn't, so we're taking it back. I don't think we can return it but if the problem persists we'll take the lemon law route if need be.

We won't hesitate to buy another HCH though because aside from the problem, we love the car.

Oh, one other thing I've been meaning to mention...

There is also a harsh engagement when putting the car in reverse. Sometimes it's a little difficult to move the stick into reverse and when it goes in there is a very obvious "thunk". I wonder if this is tied to the other problem we're having? Or is that normal for this car?

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Again, that doesn't sound normal for the HCH at all. My shifting is all completely smooth. Anyone else here notice something like that?

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Never had a problem going reverse, engages just like it does moving forward. I hope they manage to fix it as something is definately wrong. I just recently made it kick (cause I was hitting alot of red lights today and trying my best to time them so they'll be green when I get there) and it didn't feel as harsh as what you are describing.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

I have. I experience it when parked on a hill (although I read in another thread that there is a remedy for this). The only other time I feel that is if I don't have my foot all the way down on the brake. Make sure you're pressing it down firmly. Other than that, it never does it, and I suspect something is up with my tranny, so something DEFINITELY must be wrong with yours if the above examples don't apply to you.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Hello,

I just wanted to note that I have the same exact issue. I am at 7200 miles, and I thought the problem would work itself out but it had not. Have you had any luck resolving this? Just wanted to see what's the latest and if there was any resolution to the issue yet. Thanks!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear you are having the same problem. Ours is getting worse and worse and we are taking it back to the dealership this Saturday. I will let you know what happens.

Do you experience the harsh engagement after autostop kicks in while you are still rolling and release the brake pedal? That's when ours is the worst.

Also, you sometimes have to use slightly more force to get the stick into reverse and when it goes into "gear" there is a "thunk" noise. Doesn't seem right at all.

I just hope they can fix it without throwing everything out of synch.

Good luck with yours!

Bean

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

You might want to have them check the rotor position sensor.

I've had my 07 HCH since the end of January. About 3-4 times throughout February and early March, I'd start it and the IMA, Battery, and Check Engine /Transmission lights would come on. The IMA would be disabled until I restarted the car (at which point things worked fine). The Check Engine/Transmission light would remain on for about 2-3 days and then go away.

I took it into the dealership the first time it happened and they said they didn't get any useful codes out of the computer, but to bring it back when it happened again.

About 2 weeks later, I started having similar problems and they became progressively worse. I also noticed that the transmission seemed to jerk when it engaged and a couple of times it corresponded to the times when the dashboard lights would come on.

This time, the dealership diagnosed the problem as a failing rotor position sensor. After having this replaced, things seem to drive more smoothly and no more error messages.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Primarily I have the problem with the hard engagement. Like you, I feel a hard jolt. I don't reverse too often so I haven't noticed anything, but I will make sure to pay attention for it. Good Luck on Saturday. I'm done with finals this week, so I might be able to take it in next week.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

If Honda makes the CVT engage a bit later like the Prius, that will help alot. 5-10 more hp on the IMA will solve that problem. :D

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

did you get a chance to head to the dealership? I just change my oil for the first time last week, and it seems to be happening a bit less. but we'll have to see. it's only been a couple of days.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Reviving an old post here. I have had this issue as well and there should finally be a fix. Note, whatever you do do not let them just search your vin number because it won't come up (don't ask me why I know this the hard way). Have them pull up TSB 08-014 for Harsh Transmission Engagement on the Hybrid. The cause is excess fluid pressure in the valve body that engages the start clutch. The fix is to put the latest software in the car and it should get rid of it. I have an appointment on Tuesday to get my update and I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Only problem, this only is listed for all 2007 cars and a large chunk of the 2008 cars. 2006's I'm not sure, but getting the latest software upgrade from the dealership can't hurt. Getting one update already has made the air conditioning work so much better on the car.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Thanks Rick! I'll get it checked out soon!

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

Soneone asked recently if there were any software upgrades for the HCH-II and the reply was "No."

So, now there are a few? What are the details of the AC upgrade?

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

I should say that I know one of the mechanics at the Honda dealer so I probably have more access to these things than most people. Still, what I've found I found by Googling it.

I've had at least two software updates on my 2007 thus far. The first one was regarding a TSB about poor air conditioning performance. This applied to all Civics. Basically the AC compressor would kick off for 8 seconds when you took off from a stop at 50% throttle or more. The software update made it not kick off for so long. I received this update at the end of last summer I think after suffering here in Phoenix. It immediately was noticeably colder after getting the update. When I got that one he said I'd already missed two other updates before that.

If I can find the link to that I'll post it. If you get the update for harsh transmission engagement it should have all the previous ones included. I think the trick is knowing how to complain right. I also got the new rear upper control arms by complaining of general looseness in the rear end and tire roar.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

First the good news, the car got its update and thus far I have not been able to produce a harsh start clutch engagement I had previously had. It was over 100 degrees when I got the car back so I wasn't expecting auto stop, but it did eventually start doing it and I could not cause the harsh engagement no matter what I tried. Specifically I think everyone experiencing it will agree it typically happened when you were still moving in auto stop and let off the brake. I drove around my neighborhood at low speeds to try and simulate this and I only had smooth start clutch engagements. In fact now I'd say that the engagements are all very consistent given varying conditions, this wasn't the case before!

Regarding other questions, here's the TSB for the poor AC performance:
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A07-062.pdf
It does not list the hybrid, but when they updated my car all those months ago it most definitely made an appreciable improvement in the AC performance. Also, if you get the newer update for the transmission it will cover the AC too so I wouldn't even worry about it.

Here is the TSB for the harsh transmission engagement:
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A08-014.pdf
This TSB came out on March 1st so if anyone has had their car in for this problem and the dealer was unable to fix it between then and now I'd be questioning how good that dealer really is.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

If you understand how the transmission works it will help you prevent this problem.

The CVT transmission has an auto clutch in it, so that the engine can be left running while the car is stopped. Such as idling etc.

As you slow down/stop at traffic lights the clutch is disengaged and then a moment later the engine shuts down (normally, sometimes it will still run).

When the lights change and you take your foot off the brake, the car immediately starts the engine back up, then it goes through the process of smoothly engaging the clutch, this is not as simple as switching a light bulb and takes the cars computer/mechanics about 1 second to complete. It does not seem to take into account the engine RPM when it does this action.

If you simply take your foot off the brake and stamp on the gas, the engine RPM will rise just before the car can start the engagment process, when it does engage, the car will lurch and put more stress on the drive belt and the clutch itself.

The problem is worse when the car is new, the clutch mechanism is not polished nice and smooth with use, so when it does grab, it grabs faster and harder. With a few thousand miles on it, it will take up smoother.

In the future be a little more patient with the brake/gas, give the car just under a second between taking your foot off the brake and pressing the gas pedal so it can go through its process.

Re: New HCH II owners, possible problem
 

and ask...Hmm that was me, mines a 2006, perhaps I need to call the dealer and ask...

Woohoo, Honda is giving me the software update for free tomorrow even though my car is a salvage! I love honda! :) :)

Curiously the dealer doesn't "flash" the update, they just switch the ECU's which takes a couple of hours...odd..