Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Boy I hate to have to be writing post, but since Honda USA has decided to turn their back on me, I feel have have no other leverage in this situation and I can only hope others considering the purchase of a Honda Hybrid and reading this post will think twice about it.

I own a Honda Insight. I've owned it for over 4 years now, and it has been a great vehicle. I have had it serviced regularly by Honda and have not missed a single scheduled maintenance visit. This June, on a trip from where I live in the California Sierras to Las Vegas, a funny thing started to happen. This drive involves a lot of hills, and traveling with my wife, we were near the load limit for the car. Driving in the mountains, you use a lot of battery - you can't help it. The good news is that you can get good recharges as you drive back downhill from you ascents. Anyhow, I noticed that once my battery got one or two "lines" below 1/2, the battery charge dropped precipitously. I mean it dropped to just 2 lines in about 10-15 seconds. Even worse, it didn't matter whether I was driving at the time or not. I tested this by pulling over to the side, putting the car in neutral and letting the engine shut down as it normally does, but the battery drain, once started always dropped to 2 lines - despite its not being used at all at the time!

Now this is not good. But to make it just a little bit worse, I still needed to bring the charge all the way back through the "drop range" in order to get it back where I could use it again. The only good thing about this trip was that the trip down to Vegas was on June 10, and the trip back on June 19. It was fortunately very mild weather in the Nevada high desert aone those dates, and I could often run without AC when at altitude. Had we been driving during the present heat wave, we would have been in very serious trouble.

So once I got back, I took the car into the dealer and explained the problem. They ran all their tests and told me the car, and the battery system was fine. I then took the mechanic who worked on the car out for a drive. I drained the battery to half, and watch carefully. Once it started to drop, I pulled over the side of the road, put the car in neutral and let the engine shut down. His jaw dropped about as quickly as the the battery did.

At this point he agreed that the battery system was not fine, but given the limited experience he had with hybrids, he needed to call Honda USA's tech advisors. They indicated that - even though the battery is "fully" warranted for eight (count 'em: 8) years, and even though it was clearly failing, that they would not fix it under warranty because it had not "failed enough" to set off their bloody IMA indicator lights. "Failed enough" - gotta love that logic!

Ok, so I escalated this to Honda Customer Service at the behest of the service manager at my dealer since their hands were tied in the matter.The upshot of all that, is that after playing over a week's worth of phone tag, Honda won't do anything to correct the problem. They do acknowledge that the battery is failing and offered to extend the battery's warranty to 125,00 miles, but what the heck good would another 2 or 3 years do me. If the battery is going to fail completely while I'm out in the high desert, that extension won't help worth beans. Further, I honestly believe that either the battery will continue to deteriorate over the next 3 or 4 years to the point where the IMA light will fail, or it will just reach a crippled point and stop detriorating. In either case, such a warranty extension is clearly worthless. They were trying to throw me a bone to shut me up and have me go away. I declined.

So now I have two choices: I can try to sell what I know to be a failing vehicle - even if Honda's morales don't mind that, mine do - or I can try to live with it until it "fails more" - perhaps leaving me in a seriously bad situation when that happens. I don't not find either of these alternatives acceptable. As such, I feel that my only recourse at this time is to let everyone I can know about this incident and warn then away from Honda's hybrid vehicles. Their battery warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

My short advice to all reading this: Buy a Prius!

Most Sincerely,

= Ed Rotberg =

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I really feel for you. I've had many problems with my Civic Hybrid over the past year and feel pretty helpless. I don't have any specific advice on how to proceed, but persist and keep us updated. Hang in there!

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Maybe this is the same problem that Toyota has with their 'D' cell battery packs in the 1997-1999 Prius in Japan. Toyota changed over to rectangular cells that last longer than D cells and also have lower internal resistance so they can charge faster and 'give up' current faster. Toyota still offers to replace those Japanese models affected by the problem, and the 2000+ models have been totally free from any battery problems so far, other than the positive terminal corrosion that was a minor problem in humid areas.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

The only consolation I can give you is that I don't think the honda hybrid system will shut down the car when it fails. You should still be able to drive in a deteriorated state (no assist). So you won't get stranded anywhere.

The dealers hands arn't tied. They make enough money that they could replace the battery pack and eat the cost and probably not break much of a sweat if they realy wanted to. They throw in all sorts of accessories like sunroofs, alloy wheels etc. to make a sale. They can certainly replace a battery pack. Ask them if they ever want you to buy a car from them again? And ask them how much they think word of mouth about this experience will affect their reputation.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi EdRotberg:

___You just saw a simple “recal” by your description. Go over to InsightCentral.net and do a search on “recal” over there. It is not a thing I would want to have happen during a climb but until it throws a Cel or IMA light, you will own a well performing Insight until such time as the Recal’s begin happening on such a frequent basis that the IMA light is thrown. This is not a catastrophic event but it can get worse over time as your pack has less capacity then it did previously.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I'm very sorry to hear of your problems. I hope you hang in there, until someone sees the light . A couple of thoughts:

Find the upper levels of customer relations, and complain there. Keep on escalating. Write to Japan if need be. Polite and factual is best.

Write to CARB. Honda are not honoring the warranty.

Demand arbitration wrt your warranty. I know arbitration is not fair, but this is so left-field you should win anyway.

Demand from Honda a written explanation of criteria that they will consider battery failure. Have them explain why your situation does not satisfy them.

Have you had your error codes examined ? If nothing is popping up, the diagnostics that monitor the battery are simply inadequate, and should not be relied upon to document failure.

Make sure you have written documentation from a Honda certified mechanic regarding the battery. Include it with every letter you send.

Since you posted here, I presume you are posting at every Honda hybrid site known to man ? Good.

Check out planetFeedback. I don't know if they have direct lines to Honda, but if they do place a complaint there as well.

If all this fails, I would seriously consider writing letters to the editor to the major car magazines. This is truly unconscionable conduct, and if Honda has made this policy, consumers should know about it.

Very saddening state of affairs.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Wayne,

I just went to Insight Central and did a search on "recal". Nothing turned up. However, I did find a section that described this occurance as "normal". Funny that the folks at Honda don't seem to know anything about this. Also, being a software engineer who has written dynamic recalibration code myself, I simply do not understand why the problem would persist after "recal". The new range of levels should be kept in non-volatile memory and be used from then forward. Even if they were kept in RAM, they should persist for the duration of an individual drive. This was decidedly NOT the case.

Thanks for the pointer.

= Ed =

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Thanks for your response Eric. I had already copied the content of my post here to Auto Week, Car & Driver and Road & Track magazines. I do plan to contact consumer advocacy groups, and perhaps even a lawyer. I will probably pass this info on to other boards as I find them as well.

Thanks again,

= Ed =

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Maybe it does its recal under different loads

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi EdRotberg:

___Recal’s have been discussed literally hundreds if not thousands of times of times over at InsightCentral.net and as many times if not more in the Yahoo - Honda - Hybrid group(s). Here is a direct link to the InsightCentral.net forums search engine:

InsightCentral.net - Search --> Type in the term “Recal” without the quotes into the Search for keywords box and hit the search button on the bottom using the default search options.

___I counted at least 119 threads with hundreds of individual posts about what it is, why do Honda hybrids have them, and when if ever it is time for a new pack. I hope you find the threads of great use because what you have described so far is a very mild recal event and is absolutely nothing that Honda needs to do by your description? Honda is doing exactly what they have always done at your point of mild pack degradation. When you get a good feel as to the definition of a recal, post to this thread because I can tell many here including Honda IMA owners have never heard of it nor do they understand what it is and why one may occur. Relax until such time the degradation becomes so pronounced that you have drivability issues with it. HCH’s and even Prius’ could have one of these events although they would be hidden from the end user because there really is no good way to tell what the cap of a group of NiMH cells are worth at any given time no matter the algorithm used. Watching the actual pack voltage of a Prius II vs. the SoC meter cycling between 3 and 5 bars just this week over an extended period tells me no manufacture has a good handle on this issue just yet.

___Again, I never experienced one when I owned my Insight but I was always leery of them and avoided cycling the pack as well as exposing the pack to high internal ambient temps in parking lots on hot and sunny days at all costs. In fact, I never touched an IMA assist other then for a few seconds of every hour when it was sometimes unavoidable to see 4 bars of 20 while accelerating through second gear before up shifting into third. Most of the time under acceleration, I could keep assist at bay all the way up to highway speeds. If you can use this light acceleration/maximum SoC battery management technique, your FE will sky rocket as well. For pack temp management, always crack those windows when parked because like any car buttoned up on a 90 + degree day in the summer sun, your internal ambient will reach upwards into the 160 + degree F range pretty quickly. Look at the temp range specs of any NiMH pack and I am sure you will see why I believe temperature management of a hybrids pack is just as important as SoC management while under way.

___Finally, do not expect a tech from just any Honda dealership to understand what a hybrid is doing let alone how to attempt to diagnose one without a Honda Scan Tool and training. Unless the tech owns an Insight or HCH for himself and follows the various online forums, he is more then likely clueless about issues a hybrid owner may see over the life of his or her vehicle. There is nothing wrong with this because there are so few hybrids that come in so these guys never get the chance to get skilled on them unlike a non-hybrid Civic or Accord they probably work on multiple times a day.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Recals Proportional to Type of Driving
 

I want to second xcel's assertion that recals depend on the driving.

I have never recaled on my nearly 5-year old Insight hypermiling on the freeway.

If I get caught on an afternoon commute on a hot summer day into stop-and-go traffic after doing somewhat aggressive driving, I've had recals.

This June, I was on I25 going from New Mexico to Denver. It was the 1st trip I recaled twice. I was going at the posted speed limit (75mph). The recals were going up the longer climbs or two climbs close together. Back in the flatlands, the recals are rare again.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I recently had this problem with recal. Luckily my dealership actualy had a technician who at least had enough hybrid knowledge/experience to know where to look to find the information on recal.
Part of the problem I was having was that one of my valves was misfunctioning causing a shuddering when I was driving in the 50-55 mph range at 55 mpg. I think that because I wasn't getting good gas usage because of the valve problem the car was relying on the IMA more than usual and so I was having recal almost weekly - sometimes twice a week.
Now that the valve has been replaced I'm not having recal happening.
IMHO, Honda should train their service departments to know more about their hybrids - they are shamefully un-educated. Even I (and I know nothing about cars) seem to know more about my hybrid than they do.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Wayne,

Good reading. Thanks for the links. One thing I noticed is that in the vast majority of the cases I have had time to look at (as you point out there are over 100 posts concerning similar issues), the recal events are an occaisional thing. Most folks say they seem them a couple of times, occasionally weekly, rarely daily.

When I'm on the road - and please remember that I live in the mountains - I see them CONSISTENTLY when the battery pack falls below a specific level (just below 1/2 on the SoC guage). As I stated before, if it is indeed a recalibration going on, one would expect that, at least for the duration of that specific outing if not longer, that a single recalibration would resolve the dropping issue and from then forward the SoC guage would read more or less normally as it should be mor eproperly calibrated to the state of the battery. However, I am seeing recalibrations many, many times DURING THE SAME DRIVE!!! This does not seem normal to me at all, even given the posts you have referenced that I have had a chance to read thus far.

I will continue reading these posts, as I would like to learn more abot this. Clearly the folks at Honda - even their tech people at Honda USA, don't have a clue about this stuff, and communicating with them is like is tantamount to need double-secret decoder rings. You can't talk directly to anyone with any knwoledge/authority.

But, as you have pointed me at some good reference material, I will do my best to see just how my situation compares to those of others. So far, there are similarities, but there are also significant differences.

= Ed =

Re: Recals Proportional to Type of Driving
 

Delta,

I'm glad that you have your recal situation under control. I'm sure I would be far less concerned about it (I probably would not be even getting recals) if I lived in the flatlands as well.

For me, driving steep hills and mountains is a DAILY event. I have to climb 8% grades just to get to the main artery from where my home is.

I'm also a bit amused by the people advising everyone to change their driving to minimize the usage of their assist in order to avoid recals and improve battery life. These are all clearly flatlanders. I'm sorry folks, but with 2 humans in a car, going up a even just a 5% grade, you don't get up it without assist unless you are willing to drive the whole way in first gear and piss off dozens (if not more) cars behind you as you crawl up a HIWAY at 15 MPH.

I'd also point out that they put the assist feature in these cars to be used - not to be avoided. If the feature doesn't work, since the car was designed to use it, they should fix the feature. Just MHO you understand.

To those who talk about changing driving habits I ask that you "drive a mile in my car" as it were before blaming it on my driving.

= Ed =

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Ed,

I was looking forward to my first trip to the mountains this June to see how my 5-speed Insight did. I'm returning in August and want to try the sustained incline of I70 just west of Denver.

My conclusion: Mountains won't recal unless you have a long climb. I25 has some long climbs, a few pretty steep. Driving in Rocky Mountain National Park on Highways 34 & 36 were if anything more hilly. Difference was the climbs tended to be short and it was hard to drive over 60mph (tight turns, traffic...). This reduced the stress on the assist.

If it's not obvious, the Insight's assist was not designed to work as long as the Prius'. The Insight emphasizes a very efficient engine and lightweight body, while the Prius has a full hybrid engine that can run at a more constant speed. Both has it's pros and cons. I tend to think an HSD will do better in the mountains than an IMA, although my manual Insight did better than expected.

Honda emphasises an efficient gas engine - Toyota the recovery of wasted kinetic energy .

In regards to your assertions the assist was there to be used - without it I'd probably get killed in Dallas! :omg:

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Well, I own a manual Insight. I'm also willing to bet that you were driving by yourself through the mountains. That makes a TREMENDOUS difference in the use of assist.

I'm not a dummy, and I drive my car very conservatively. I don't abuse the IMA, but where I live, and when I have my wife in the car (or another passenger), it is REQUIRED.

Your posts continue to imply that it is my driving that is at fault, and frankly I resent that. I have been driving manual transmission vehicles since 1971. The reason I ended up with an Insight instead of the Prius in the first place is that I have never owned anything but a manual transmission, and I was uncomfortable with CVT.

I'm so happy that YOUR conclusion is that "mountains won't recal". I guess that means it's definative and I should go bury my Insight in the back yard, hang my head in shame, and crawl into a hole next my myu buried Insight. No thank you!

Once again I'll say that driving through the mountians is NOT the same as daily driving in the mountains. Your vehicle is not subjected to the same driving patterns that mine has been over the last 4 years.

I'll end this post now before I post something that I'll regret later.

= Ed =

Apology: Was NOT Trying to Imply Your Driving Was Lead-Footed
 

Ed,

My mountain experiences were just half a week. I would not doubt that if I spent several months, I'd be experiencing many of the same things you have. My experience was not comprehensive.

My going on and on that "it was not as bad as I thought it would be" somehow got interperted as saying your driving was bad. I apologize if it seemed that way. I never intended it to come off that way.

I was attempting to say I25 was tougher on my assist than Hwy 34 & 36. I25 had longer climbs and higher speeds.

I'm very curious as to how my Insight would behave in the mountains as my 1988 CRX HF was unable to leave Denver west on I70 faster than 50mph due to the incline. In other words, it probably did not perform as well as the Insight.

Again, I apologize for my last post seeming like a judgement on your driving.

Re: Apology: Was NOT Trying to Imply Your Driving Was Lead-Footed
 

Thanks for clearing that up Delta. I too am sorry about the whole misunderstanding.

One additional point about all of this: Many of the posts that Wayne (excal) referred to commented on how trying to keep the battery cool by keeping the AC on (the battery is vented behind the passenger seat) help resolve these problems. Sadly, when it's hot and you are driving hills, using teh AC does increase the load on the assist (you can watch it and verify this yourself), so it's a catch 22 in those scenarios. I've developed a pattern of switching between AC off and AC Econ as I go up and down hills in hot weather as a poor man's compromise.

One poster did talk about mounting some PC pancake fans in teh vent hole and hooking up the fans to the cigarette lighter plug. This sounds interesting to me, and I may look into it. Again, it's too bad that Honda hasn't adressed these issues.

= Ed =

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi EdRotberg:

___I am glad you are finding the resources useful …

___With that, I would not want to be in your situation given the location. It is one thing for us flatlanders as you say to be able to avoid the pack throughout all driving cycles and another entirely for someone in your locale. Either way, I do know how to climb 6 - 7% grades in an Insight 5-speed without assist while maintaining 19 - 20 of 20 bars on the SoC and it is not in first gear at 15 mph. I am in the truck climbing lane with the emergencies on running second gear at > 2,700 RPM just below VTEC engagement and just above any assist for FE purposes. If you are driving 8% grades and you do not have a truck lane to be in, heaven help you. That road would dangerous for any number of other vehicles as well. I never drove my “Little Beauty” into VTEC engagement that I remember but I bet a second gear, low 4,000 RPM, VTEC engaged, steady climb might yield similar results (no assist) as my experiments at an acceptable speed for you although you would not be receiving 50 - 60 mpg during the climb is all. It sucks to have to attempt a change in habits after all these years but either the pack will degrade in such a fashion that an IMA MIL is finally thrown (then you get a new pack and maybe a controller module and inverter assembly) or you continue to live with multiple recals per climb per your description.

___I am not telling you how to drive but am suggesting alternatives to your current habits given an obvious degraded pack from new. I am also attempting to give you a workaround to achieve maximum FE, safety, and maintain your pack’s longevity in the process. Hopefully you will have an IMA MIL thrown and you will be done with this sometime within the next 6 -12 months. Once you receive a new pack and possibly a controller and maybe inverter, you will either protect that pack as described or suffer a continually degrading pack until this scenario happens all over again some years down the road except you are without a warranty to cover your rear the second go around. Packs are simply not meant to climb and unfortunately for us all, that is the #1 Honda hybrid’s secret that no one warned anyone about ahead of time.

___The HCH w/ CVT has much improved upon HW and SW algorithms to protect that pack from the abuse of a climb but it is not perfect. The 5-speed HCH’ers have better pack management SW as well but they can get into their packs just as hot if they so choose as well. The Prius I and II drivers are better protected with a more tightly controlled assist and regen threshold(s). I believe the Toyota HSD system works as follows after reading the US lab reports on it. If the SW sees a SoC either below a given threshold or at a rate that will lead to that threshold, in comes the charge/regen and to hell with assist thus degrading your performance somewhat. Another item is Honda’s D-Cell arrangement vs. the US Prius I and II’s prismatic setup. There simply is no way to measure an individual D-Cell’s cap or discharge rate the way the cells are arranged in the Honda system and the Toyota layout might be a bit more manageable is all. All of the above being said, everyone still has to maintain a pack management technique while the car is parked out in the sun during the heat of summer. With no air flow around those giant packs while sitting in 160 + ambient of a buttoned up Prius I, II, Insight, HCH, AH, RXh, HH, Escape HEV, pack degradation is bound to happen imho. Crack those windows or get her inside is about all I can add.

___Good Luck and I hope it all works out for you in the end.

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I was fortunate not to have needed the A/C much in Colorado. Besides the air is dry. I toggle the A/C a lot myself. My dream car would allow me to roll down the window and set the fans to blast the hot air out from a remote while walking to the car....

My baseline for bad mountain experiences is my 1988 CRX HF when it was leaving Denver westbound on I70. I had to rev it in 3rd gear and still could manage only 50mph. :( I bet the Insight would do better. There is also a part of I5 around LA that is a very hard climb.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

"___With that, I would not want to be in your situation given the location. It is one thing for us flatlanders as you say to be able to avoid the pack throughout all driving cycles and another entirely for someone in your locale. Either way, I do know how to climb 6 - 7% grades in an Insight 5-speed without assist while maintaining 19 - 20 of 20 bars on the SoC and it is not in first gear at 15 mph. I am in the truck climbing lane with the emergencies on running second gear at > 2,700 RPM just below VTEC engagement and just above any assist for FE purposes."

Wayne,

Thanks again for your insight - no pun intended. I agree with being able to maintain driving without assist below the VTEC engagment on a 6%-7% grade - unless you are near to max load. When I drive by myself, I can maintain this. When I have a passenger it becomes much more problematic. Of course FE in this situation is pretty much gone.

At this point I'm hoping to thow a cell or an IMA light ASAP. Isnt' that great? I have to hope that my car fails. This is a problem with Honda's policy in this regard. Once it does, and I get a new pack, I will trade my Insight in for a Prius, and CVT be darned - I'll accustomize myself to driving without a manual. For people in my situation, it is simply a better designed car than the Hondas - period.

Thanks again.

= Ed =

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Just to clarify for folks, the Prius has something that gets the same sort of results as a CVT (no shifting) but it's not really a CVT, it's technically not changing the ratio at all, it's like being in 5th gear all the time. The electric motors are so strong that they have no trouble launching the car in 5th gear so at lower speeds you are just using the electric motor to move the car and the ICE will run simply to generate some power for the electric motor until the car gets up to speed so the ICE can contribute directly to the motion of the vehicle. I know I used to think the Prius had an actual CVT and there was a variable ratio gear system, but what I learned recently has changed that understanding.

A used Prius 2001-2003 may be an adequate replacement for the Insight. Around here they sell used for about the same price, so it may not even cost you much. We have the 2001 Prius and we live in a very hilly area. Your FE will take a hit going up a hill, but the car manages very well in performance and battery management regardless of how hard you drive it. Toyota got rid of the turtles in the Japan-only first gen.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Thanks for the VERY informative posts, Wayne.

I've been thinking about tinting my car, and after reading this thread, I am adequately motivated. Letting a breath of air into the cabin when the car is sitting out in the sun is also advice no one should ignore without a really good reason.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi EdRotberg:

___Whooa, I never mentioned A/C. I might have used A/C maybe 4 or 5 times in total while I owned the Insight. What I did do however is have the Fan at MAX without A/C at all times anytime the internal temp of the car was > 70 degrees while I was driving. No A/C but forced airflow which itself works its way through the pack with the packs internal fans helping along the way. With very little to no pack use (there was always some given the ICE balance activity she was designed to perform) and/or IMA starts, you are not generating any real heat at the source (at the pack) thus 90 - 105 internal ambient would be perfectly acceptable imho. I did not use Regen other then when it was a necessity to hit the binders and you may as well get something back. The “Driving Without Brakes” technique was being implemented more then I care to admit but the small regen hits would be of such a short duration and spaced so far apart as to be of no concern using my own brand of pack management. It is the parking lot on a hot sunny day scenario that I was extremely concerned about then and would be today if I owned another hybrid. These are just theories but theory’s that make perfect sense given all I had read in the various hybrid forums, the national labs reverse engineering of the Prius I and Insight, and my own brand of common sense before purchase is all.

___My methods were bleeding edge and ones you may not find convenient, natural, or even comfortable. With that, I know how I handled a hybrid’s pack in the past and I would not change my methods even today vs. most everyone else that would just get in and drive. My use of IMA starts however was a whole other matter ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi All:

___I am falling behind the posts as I type up my own. I am a slow typer making a lot of mistakes as I go and must edit quite a bit before hitting submit (I don’t really know how to type ;)) so pardon my own replies that seem out of synch with the responses ahead of them.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Ed,

How many miles does your insight have ?

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Ed,

I think everyone is in agreement that your battery pack is aging fast from mountain driving. I was wondering how bad the batteries are.

If you have an occasion to find a strech of road that is relatively flat for several miles, you might want to see if your battery charge is full. If you have that chance and the charge is full, the batteries are probably OK. Then you might be able to see the Insight and get a Prius, saying you want more than a 2-seater. If you sell it to a flatlander, it might be a win-win situation.

Hope that helps.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

An ignorant, naive flatlander perhaps, so long as you don't bother to mention multiple recals ..

I get the impression Ed is not that kind of person.

That is actually how my wonderful Honda Civic was sold. My wife wanted a new car, and I acquiesced because of the Prius. One of our two cars had to go, and the obvious one was the Subaru. Only problem was that there had been 3 or so instances when the engine had died during driving over the last couple of years. I could not withold that kind of information from a prospective buyer, and I couldn't imagine anybody buying the car knowing it, at least at a price worth considering. I thought quite a bit about just *giving* the car to someone in need, but in the end the Honda was sold.

Happily, the people that bought it are good folk, and will appreciate the car like I did. The experience was somewhat similar to finding a home for a kitten.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I noticed one of the things 'standard' on the Prius is "High Energy Solar Absorbing Window Glass" probably helps save some on battery abuse.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I hate to say this, but the mountains favor the over-powered conventional gasoline engines. Hybrid engines in general, and the IMA in particular were not designed to frequently be driven in the passing lane mode - a situation many mountain drivers are faced with. I don't mean passing other drivers a lot, but applying that kind of power.

On a personal note, next month I attempt to run up Pikes Peak. If any of you have acess to a treadmill, jog at a normal setting, then set the incline setting to 12% or as far as it will go. This is your car in the mountains - any questions? :omg:

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

...

aka "UV absorbing." that's it. nothin' else. Keep you seatcovers and dash from fading so quickly.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Toyota has the same policy. My battery died on Tuesday of this week. They towed it in and said the tests were "just fine" and sent me on my way. They said the re-charged the battery but the charge level was very low so I drove it around to charge it up some more. The battery level looked lower than it ever has but finally started to go up again. My battery died again on Saturday. I called the service department where they told me they cannot replace the battery if it passes the tests. It was also afternoon so they said they had no one to even deal with it until Monday (tomorrow). I asked him if they would replace the battery and he told me if it passes the tests, it will not be replaced. I have two small children and live in Scottsdale where the average summer temperature is 108. It's been as high as 115 this summer. Essentially, I have to risk getting stuck because of this battery again and again if it keeps passing the tests. It's not like I can go out and buy a new battery for this vehicle. I am hamstrung by Toyota. I angrily called customer service and they are opening a case file but this is ridiculous. I was the biggest proponent of hybrids when I bought this car last year. I have told everyone how it's just like owning a regular car which it was until this happened. It is not true and if Toyota does not take care of this problem I will be their biggest public relations nightmare. I bought this car because I thought it was the right thing to do and allowed me to carpool with other families. Now I feel like they are just using me as a guinea pig to figure out the battery issue. It's not just Honda. Apparently, it's industry wide.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi A few words about recals.
I have a 2000 5speed Insight that just crossed the 100K point. For the last 20K, I have had the MIMA system installed. MIMA lets you control assist and regen so you are not at the mercy of the on board computers. One of the MIMA users lives in CA, and has mountain climbs as a part of his normal commute, and has found that limiting assist on the climbs so that the pack can last the whole way up yields the best mileage. He has no problem recovering the charge on the way down.His report:
http://99mpg.com/people/hypermilerthermalp/

While NIMH batteries do not have the severe "Memory Effect" that NICAD batteries are so well known for, they do have a memory. I have been cycling my pack from nearly full to 1 bar sometimes several times a day, and have never had a recal. Is light use of the IMA one of the causes of recals? Can't say.

The recal is very likely one cell in the 120 cells that has lower capacity than the rest, and is determining the total pack useable capacity since the pack is a single series string. The charging system runs the charge from 20% to 80%, so the low capacity cell never gets any extra charge to try to rebalance the pack. Once you start getting recals, the system seldom gets better.

If you buy a NIMH battery from any of the actual battery manufacturers, it will have a warranty that states that when the useable capacity drops by say 20%, that the battery is considered at the end of life.
Honda seems to have set their threshold for end of life at some extremely low capacity.
I know of several people that only can use 2-3 bars of charge before they get a recal. 20% actual SOC = 0 bars, and 80%actual SOC = 20 bars. This translates into about 4AH of useable capacity.
If you only can use 3 bars out of 20, or 15% of the charge, you only have .6 AH of useable charge. You paid for 4AH, and only have .6. That should be the argument with Honda.
Hondas internal IMA monitoring software has some obvious bias towards not setting the IMA battery code of death, until things get so bad as to be dangerous.

I remenber a particular case where an Insight owner was merging onto the rush hour freeway in CA with a full pack, and while accelerating to match the speed of the freeway traffic, he got a recal, and lost all assist. The resultant loss of power at this critical time nearly caused an accident. He had been around this recal issue with Honda several times up to that point, with no satisfaction. He wrote a nasty letter to Honda, explaining that recals are not just an aggravation, but a safety related issue, and that if they do not fix the problem he would be forced to take them to court, and that he knew of many more people that have the same issues so a class action was not out of the question. His pack was imediately replaced at no cost.
Recals are an indication of a mismatch between the actual capacity of the pack and the expected (4 useable AH), and therefore are not normal but a clear indication of reduced capacity. How much reduction in capacity should be allowed before the pack is rebuilt or replaced is where Honda is stretching things way in their favor.
Mike;)

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Hi Ed,

I have a Civic Hybrid. Battery is slowly dying, rarely gets above half charged, and the computer is constantly trying to charge it regardless of road conditions which kills my gas milage. Dealer says condition is "normal for it age" (6 years). I guess this is similar to "hasn't failed enough" as you encountered.

I guess they could say the same thing if you had 80,000 on the car and your front struts were leaking and the car was bouncing all over the place. That might also be normal for the age.

:angry:

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I have just over 80,000 miles on my Honda Insight 2001 CVT and just got the P1469 and P1669 codes. The dealer replaced my battery pack and everything seems to be working now except at about 40 or 60 MPH I noticed a vibration on medium acceleration of about 6-8 bars on assist meter. Anyone have a solution to these oscillations of about 200 per minute?

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

Can you tell where the vibration coming from?

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I believe that certain parameters are causing the assist program to go into a loop causing it to go in and out of assist at a high rate.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I have found a considerable drop in gas mileage as the recalibrations become more frequent. When I first purchased my HCH, I saw 50 MPG regularly. A colleague who purchased the same vehicle at the same time STILL sees 50. Both are 2008 HCH purchased in Spring 2008. One day last week, while my IMA battery was at 7 bars, I drove 45 to 50 for about 20 miles. 57.9 mpg according to the dash. I got onto the highway to drive another 20 and my overall was 34. I've been seeing an average of 34 mpg for months. CLEARLY the problem is the management of the IMA battery.

I have been complaining to Piazza Honda in Reading, PA for months. My car spent 3 days at Piazza Honda on two separate occasions since July 1, 2009. I escalated the matter to Honda Customer Service. I finally spoke with the representative after leaving 10 messages over several days. I finally received a callback after indicating my next call would be escalated to a manager. He was very short with me and made it clear "As long as the dealership says the system is performing properly, there is no problem". I called Roberts Honda in Downingtown, where my car just spent 7 days. Again, after working with the honda tech line, they determined there is no problem.

My IMA battery shows 4 bars more than any other value. I am a software developer and I've been troubleshooting this issue for months. My commute is nearly flat and mostly highway. One morning I left my driveway at 7 bars, saw 4 bars less than 2 miles later as I entered the turnpike and was down to 2 bars less than 10 miles later. I took photos of the dash, I found the behavior so surprising, especially after being told it is WORKING AS DESIGNED. When I asked where 30% of my fuel economy went, I received no real answer.

Based on information in the forums, I believe Honda to be CLUELESS about the battery management. I paid for an extended warranty so I pay NOTHING to replace the battery. Unfortunately, until I can convince someone there's a problem, I'll be getting 35 mpg rather than 50. In the meantime, I purchased a GREEN 1999 Maxima with 168,000 miles. It's a lot more fun to drive, so what if I get 25 mpg. I'm going green in a new way. Perhaps I'll make it a rolling billboard to enlighten others. My HCH will be parked for a few months while I speak with a friend in the Attorney General's office. It is time for SOMEONE to hold Honda's feet to the fire.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!
 

I had a 2006 Civic wear out four tires on the back with flat spots. I had to call Honda to get the problem resolved. There was a Technical Service Bulletin explaining the exact problem and the fix. Honda did not replace the tires because I did not realize the problem until recently with slightly over 36,000 miles on the car. Did you call the 800 number for Honda America? Try American Honda Motor Company, Inc. Consumer Affairs Department 1919 Torrance Blvd. Toll free: 1-888-888-7020. Fax: 651-264-5827

I think a class action lawsuit is beginning on the Civic rear tire problem.

My battery pack was replaced by Honda on my 2001 Insight CVT at about 80,000 miles. I get 50 MPG easy and got 71 MPG over 100 miles once.

Re: Warning: Honda Hybrid Battery Warranty!!