http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...19_dom.art.htm

http://www.hometown-pages.com/main.a...50&TM=20642.36
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...041102109.html

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opini...g_a_Prius.html

More CNW Marketing and Daily Mail nickel nonsense. The interesting aspect is the author, James L. Martin, has great friends shown on his web site.

http://boortz.com/nuze/200703/03202007.html
http://www.larslarson.com/Commentary...t/default.aspx
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...103.guest.html

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.ph...ticle_ID=14304

They copied in whole a student opinion piece from:

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

The student had not done basic fact checking on his sources, which were:

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/...n_page_id=1770

A hack job that failed to fact check the history of the Canadian nickel mining and refinery operation and current emissions and the actual percentage of nickel used to make a Prius battery.

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/
A terribly flawed 'report' full of internal inconsistencies that is contradicted by university reports on vehicle lifetime costs analysis (LCA.) Worse, it does not comply with ISO14040, the standard for LCA.

No doubt, the Libertarian web page will be picked up by other anti-hybrid, wing-nuts, and we'll see more opinion pieces with the same subject. But having a draft reply, it won't take long to edit the "letter to the editor" and 'whack a mole' their editorial boards too.

I was going to comment that like a pebble dropped into water, the waves move outward. But upon reflection, sidewalk fecal matter is soon smashed and tracked through many doors.

Bob Wilson

 

I remember in college we did a simple experiment - the class formed a circle and the professor gave the first student a sentence. By the time it was passed around the circle only a few words remained of the orginal sentence and the meaning was completely lost

I see great similarities between that college class and the media at times...

 

Now Limbaugh has picked it up. <groan>

Bob Wilson

 

Spin takes many paths Bob, I thought of this thread when I saw the new Prius tv commercial.

They have include the claim of 13K less over 5 years for the Prius, with the usual small print, using the www.Intellichoice.com study.

Here is the report that concludes the 13K difference, which you may not have questioned without my "baiting".
https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...highlight=cost
http://www.intellichoice.com/press/Hybrid-Survey-2006

Here's my post from months ago that questioned it's methodology, with the addition of the peer class or "expected cost" for each vehicle.

Here is the Prius - 19895, peer - 33305, difference 13,410 used in the commercial.

From Intellichoice the 2006 compared to 2007 Prius:

Prius 2006 MSRP - 21725, target - 21487, 5 year - 19897
Prius 2007 MSRP - 22175, target - 22175, 5 year - 22239

So somehow the target price, which is what the 5 year cost is driven off went up for the Prius by $688 but the 5 year cost went up by $2342, was the 2006 number which Toyota is using wrong?

From this data the Toyota Highlander Limited Hybrid 4wd commercial could claim savings of $8884.

From the same data the non-hybrid Toyota Highlander Limited 4wd commercial could claim savings of $11035.

Or they could concede that over 5 years the Highlander hybrid costs $2151 more.

Intellichoice also factored in the federal tax rebate which we know isn't a sure thing.

Toyota did as much fact checking as Rush.

Still looking for that spin free report.

 

In one respect you're lucky. I've only seen two commercials that even mentioned the Prius and both ran once from two separate, out of town Toyota dealers. In both the Prius and Camry hybrids were shown as part of their inventory along with Corollas and other Toyota models. Is the Toyota commercial available on the net somewhere?

If Toyota is making a false claim about the Prius purchase price or life-cycle costs, by all means, document it and send them or "Intellichoice.com" a letter. I'm having a hard time seeing your data and would suggest perhaps a table of equivalent features and list prices would help. What I'd suggest is going by a car dealer and asking a salesman to prepare two quotes of a hybrid and non-hybrid car. That is what I did when I bought my Prius. I asked the salesman to prepare an equivalent equipped Scion xB.

For the first year of ownership, I had been following our NHW11 Prius cost of ownership closely and we came in about $60 behind after the first year. Since then, the insurance and gas prices have more than made up the difference including the cost of putting on a set of new tires. My fuel costs are available via the GreenHybrid.com mileage database.

Another good source for total cost of ownership are fleet reports. One excellent source is:

http://avt.inel.gov/vehicles.shtml

Here is a sampling of their vehicle data:

• $0.51 per mile - 2004 Silverado
• $0.29 per mile - 2005 Escape
• $0.32 per mile - 2005 Honda Accord
• $0.42 per mile - 2003 Honda Civic
• $0.29 per mile - 2000 Honda Insight
• $0.80 per mile - 2006 Lexius
• $0.19 per mile - 2004 Prius
• $0.15 per mile - 2002 Prius

If you'd like to change the subject to total cost of ownership, I'm game. If you want to address just purchase price, no problem, we can both call the dealers and use some of the vendor web sites that let us make vehicle quotes.

In the meanwhile, I'll continue to edit the first posting with the history of the student opinion piece. Without a doubt, some hit-and-run troll will drop in to leave their fecal footprint at GreenHybrid.com or PriusChat.com.

Bob Wilson

 

"$0.15 per mile - 2002 Prius"

I remain at 22 cents/mile with my 2001 over 104k miles. Why are those fleet guys doing better than me??? Maybe they pay less for insurance? Maybe my habit of buying expensive tires and running them into curbs.

DAS

 

Didn't find it on the net.

I'll try asking for more details from www.intellichoice.com , you e-mailed them I believe, did you ever get a response?

I'll give that site a look, thanks.

The intellichoice data which is a total cost of ownership seems useful, I don't have a problem with the core method. They are going 5 years and 70,000 miles.

At minimum, they could show us for instance a list of ALL the vehicles included in the Prius's peer class from best to worst. They unfortunately are being selective about the data and comparison choice they gave for the hybrid article.

I was going on faith that the basic data was solid, but I was surprised that the 5 year cost of ownership for the Prius jumped from 19897 to 22239 between 2006 and 2007. Now I'm less trusting of the data as I can't imagine why it would jump, this seems the opposite of what i'd expect with the price of a Prius likely being down somewhat with more availability and phased out rebates.

Not sure how to tactfully ask intellichoice about that one, but tact isn't one of my strong points. The best I'm hoping is for a chart of what they used with data like Purchase price, depreciation, loan interest, fuel cost, repair cost, maintenance cost, registration, rebates.

I'm enjoying the spin trail your following, but I took a look at your "libertarian" website, I haven't heard of them, they don't seem to be publishing much of their own work, just a clearinghouse of others articles and op-eds that fit their agenda.

www.reason.com and www.cato.org haven't wasted time with the CNW study or the student paper article, but if they do I'll do my best to expose some truth using what I've learn here.

I'll post my letter to intellichoice and any response.

Here is the latest analysis from Vincentric, haven't looked at it yet but I was thinking that Consumer Reports and intellichoice were using data from this same source for cost of ownership.

http://www.theautochannel.com/link.h...incentric.com/

Click on Hybrid vs their all Gas siblings near the bottom. They are stuck not able to compare the Prius apples to apples with any one vehicle so they pick several alternatives.

 

Added Lars Lason to the spin machine.

Bob Wilson

 

You may add radio comentator Neil Boortz to your list of those repeating 'the bad news'; uncritically, without attribution, and 'as fact'.

As heard this morning on AM radio in San Antonio TX. I was just 'tuning through' and happened to hear it, honest!

I see now that his web site links back to the CCSU* editiorial, but I shall spare you the Boortz link.

He also said that I'd be better off with an Aveo, so everything** was being conflated. The full monty. I'm keeping the Prius; he can keep his Aveo (if any) and we shall each be as pleased as our circumstances allow.

DAS

*Remind me sometime to read that school's current accredidation documents. Boy, am I mean.

**However, he forgot to mention that my battery was posed to electrocute my brave rescuers, and that the Prius was intending to crash into a fueling station w/o my approval. That would be the real full monty.

 

I just added the latest ripple from The Philadelphia Inquirer.

Bob Wilson