When I first dropped into this group, I did state that it was to point out that GM does understand hybrid technology and intends to be a relevant player in the hybrid market. The following article plays to several of the points I was initially trying to make. Tjere is NO DOUBT that Toyota and Honda are out front, both in terms of product placement and consumer sentiment. Both started by developing product that plays to their strong points in the market, small fuel efficient cars. GM's entry into the market is taking longer because the starting point is from GM's strong position, large trucks and SUVs. GM's development work in the area, drawing from technology used to hybridize buses, is quickly approaching vehicle launch timing. As per the article below, Toyota is still trying to work out some operational issues in this segment. The different approaches to fundamental system technology set the basis for why the GM developed system works for trucks, while the Toyota system as defined by Prius / 400h does not.

One interesting quote in the article, from Toyota's Jim Press, is very interesting, because GM continuouosly gets crucified in the press for even suggesting that consumers want big trucks.

Here's the quote, also found at the end of the story....Press said big trucks are Toyota's "biggest opportunity for growth."

Peace,

Martin
Toyota faces obstacles in developing hybrid Tundra

By Mark Rechtin

Automotive News / October 24, 2005

TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. is working on a hybrid version of its next-generation Tundra pickup.



"We are doing the necessary technical development so that a large pickup with a hybrid will be developed," said Masatami Takimoto, Toyota Motor executive vice president for advanced technology.



But several key details still need to be worked out, says Jim Press, president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.



Toyota is conducting an engineering feasibility study to determine whether a Tundra hybrid can meet customer requirements, Press said. Toyota will redesign the Tundra in early 2007.



Hybrids use gasoline engines and electric engines to power the wheels.



A hybrid work truck presents engineering challenges not present in standard cars, said Dave Hermance, executive engineer for Toyota Technical Center U.S.A.



On the plus side, hybrid battery packs provide excellent low-end torque, which is good for stump-pulling and other quick-effort heavy lifting.



On the down side, many truck owners require their vehicles to tow or haul heavy loads over long distances. Hybrid battery power is nearly useless in that aspect. As a result, a pickup cannot scrimp on engine displacement without sacrificing towing performance, Hermance said. That hurts fuel economy, the main benefit of a hybrid.



Takimoto noted that long-distance towing stresses the durability of a hybrid system.



Toyota plans to sell 300,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide in 2006 and 1 million by 2010. To hit that number, selling a hybrid full-sized pickup and SUV is almost a necessity, Hermance said.



Added Press: "We are designing our vehicles with hybrids in mind from the start. It's more efficient that way. Tundra is prepared for that possibility."



Press said big trucks are Toyota's "biggest opportunity for growth."

 

Martin,I always wonder why folks said"hybrid systems aren't suitable for trucks".When I asked why,I would get some variation of'because they are RWD"or something equally baffling.1/2 ton pickups seemed perfect for a Toyota type hybrid because they had lots of space under the bed to store components,and a long length of driveshaft that could be used to attach a regenerating generator to for"braking"and attach an electric motor to for power.The battery pack could be attached to the back wall and take no more than 4-5" of bed room..Perfect!
The a truck hybrid won't be able to use a lighter-smaller motor,and towing is hard on a Hybrid system were never offered as explanations.
On the 1st problem-big motor-well the Highlander Hybrid and the Accord Hybrid don't use a smaller motor either.Of course,those 2 don't really get great economy relative to say a the Prius VS Corolla(maybe 28 vs 44 mpg on average) they are more like ICE High 19 vs 24 HH on average.Nice improvement,but not huge like the Prius.Of course a 3 mpg inprovement on on a 12 mpg vehicle saves lots of gas-200 gallons every 12000 miles.A 40 mpg vehicle(uses 300 gallons every 12000 miles) would need to improve to 120 mpg(uses 100 gallons every 12000 miles) to make the same savings.
Second problem of durability-don't really have an answer to it.
My concern for GM is that they will come out with their system too late -after everyone has switched away from pickups.
Many 1/2 ton owners are like me-(Titan KC XE 2WD) it is essentially the 2nd or 3rd family vehicle that is used for general transportation most of the time,and maybe once a month the bed is used for "whatever".I rarely tow,so the tow problem won't effect me.
A Diesel Hybrid seems like the answer.Of course all the BIG 3 charge $5000+ for their Diesel options-a huge problem.The Euros sell their diesels for about the same price as their gasoline engined cars??The BIG 3's diesels are made out of house,so the price is higher.Thanks for the info.Charlie

 

Hi Martinjlm:

___There really is nothing new about Toyota’s hybrid truck discussion although most manufacturers know they do not necessarily have to build a hybrid work truck for 5,000 - 8,500 + #’s towing cap either. How about a 2WD Chevy Colorado or Silverado w/ either BAS or P1/2 with a max towing limit of 1,000 #’s? The Escape HEV is one tough SOB and does exactly what 98% of the population does with their P/U trucks and SUV’s. Back and forth to work, the grocery store, Movie Theater, and even grandma’s house. Those with somewhat heavier bulk work to perform are still enjoying their Escape HEV’s increased FE given fuel costs what they are today. Let me look at vehicle weight. The I4 equipped Escape HEV runs a bit over 3,600 #’s for the FWD version vs. 3,300 #’s for its non-hybrid counterpart. I have seen south of the Escape’s maxxed FCD at 60.0 + mpg while driving around a rural country road, highway, and around town for the better part of an hour. The I4 equipped Saturn VUE weighs in at ~ the non-Hybrid Escape’s numbers … Is the I4 based Saturn VUE (non-hybrid 23/29) w/ BAS going to approach Ford’s FWD eCVT EPA (36/31) let alone what it is really worth or isn’t it? Even if you were to place the P1/2 or whatever you are calling it this week in the VUE, would it reach the Escape HEV’s number’s? Would it exceed the Escape HEV’s numbers as anyone here knows how to drive one? It could if you designed it properly … Are you allowed to take it to its logical limits or is GM still playing games with that 10 - 20% increase in FE? All the while we are waiting and waiting and waiting … Hasn’t GM lost enough $’s in the last year so we can wait even longer?

___Where is the GM’s hybrid of any type? I will be raking you over the coals if BAS does not meet my own sky high expectations but how well is the P1/2 doing internally? Is it going to make 27 - 30 + mpg combined in the large SUV’s or not? The HH and RXh can do that all day long in the EPA tests so how about it let alone what they are actually worth?

___Here is a Toyota HH when driven in a city environment …



___Can any of GM’s products do that? GM’s Silverado effort was a joke and now I see GM advertising it as the first hybrid P/U? What was hybrid about it? It went ICE-Off at a stop sign or light? All of Europe’s automobiles will be doing that by 2010 IIRC. They will not be calling them hybrid’s either. Have you noticed the SS (Start/Stop) system on some of the other manufacturer’s low end lines?
Toyota VITZ and Mazda Sassou

___GM does not have 1 - 2 years. In fact, GM does not have 6 months! Toyota is gearing up for a massive effort in hybrid’s including Avalon + sized automobiles w/ V8’s in the Lexus lineup that will include HSD. These things are going to knock the hell out of anything Cadillac has to offer in performance and luxury let alone FE. Add in Toyota’s “reputation” for an extremely well built automobile (deserved or not) and GM is in even bigger trouble!!! Where is GM’s equivalent? The Caddy V8 CTS at 15/23? Hold me back from jumping at the chance to purchase that kind of FE performance with the horrific plastic dash.

___Finally, where are the GM hybrid P/U’s and SUV’s? Where is the GM hybrid anything? Do you not find it sad that GM being the size that it is only offers automobiles with FE at there respective best in the low to mid 30’s? WTF are they doing? Waiting for the bankruptcy court to take them out piece by piece? GM makes many including myself mad as hell because of all that talent and energy going completely to waste designing automobiles most of the buying public could care less for. The last I read was that close to 30% of GM sales was to its own employees at their extreme discounts. Add in the fleet numbers and you have a majority of the buying public that wouldn’t look twice at a GM product today let alone look at one in the near future. Wake up and get those FE numbers up right **** now! My own P&G based - series hybrid design in the Cobalt or G6 would knock the living hell out of anything including the Insight 5-speed/HCH-II if you guys would simply design and build the SOB properly! If I see one more advertisement or discussion about H2 FCV’s out of GM, I am going to scream given the extreme hemorrhage you guys are currently experiencing. You are not on what the street deems as life support, you are in the casket and just about ready for burial!

___Good Luck, you are going to need it …

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

There are trucks bought for work, and many, many trucks bought for show. All of my neighbors who have trucks will not care that they cannot tow a ton cross-country, because they use the vehicle *exactly* how I use our Prius: work, shopping, and dropping off the kids.

The so-called "crossover vehicle" is proof of this, and it is this market hybrids are going to wrap-up, especially the 0 - 60 crowd, which a hybrid can be tuned for without a lot of FE loss.

 

Martinjlm,

Sorry to be so frustrated with GM in my posts - just wish they would catch up on hybrids.

The cylinder deactivation the Cadilliac's of the 1980's and the Accord hybrid uses probably would fit pickups better than anyother vehicle. It's been noted that pickups are often driven as commuter vehicles, yet geared to carry 1,000-2000 pounds, resulting in reduced FE. Cylinder deactivation could help this situation.

I have heard that Toyota is challenged with it's hybird pickup truck testing. When stalled, the problem is to prevent the electric motor from overheating.

 

I live in Colorado and would dearly love to have a hybrid pickup. With all the SUVs/jeeps/trucks, you can't see a whole lot of road in a car...

 

I'm sceptical about GMs approach, and personally think it is more of the same combination of apologism, stalling to gain time to catch up, poor management foresight, etc.. thinking a company can not only create but also shape a market. That's what got GM and others into the bind they are in right now, and they still don't understand or seem willing to change their ways.
I'm sceptical about having to sell full sized P/U and SUVs to sell 300k hybrids world wide. Most of the world does not want or need such full sized trucks. I'm sceptical about the statement that consumers really want large PU and SUVs. To me, this looks like a continuation of the outdated attempt by car makers to push vehicle classes that give them the largest profit margins, and using just about any excuse to market them. The GM hybrid busses that are mentioned I am also sceptical about, as I have seen numerous reports that suggest that these busses achieve little or no gains in FE or performance, over similar non-hybrid models. Overall, I can also understand the scepticism about how well hybrid systems work for very large towing vehicles, and there certainly is a given market for those. However, I think a sounder strategy would be to point out that 98% of the population does nto need to drive such vehicles 99% of the time, and thus there woudl be a large market for normally sized (not supersized) hybrid vehicles.
Once again, I think GM and Co are barking up the wrong tree.

 

Delta, No need to apologize for how you feel. The only thing I tend to take people to task for is mis-information.

GM Two-Mode Hybrid equipped SUVs and pickups will in fact use Displacement on Demand. This (as is Honda's system) is a dramatic improvement over the 1980's Cadillac system. Right now it's used on the new Chevrolet Impala and allows that car to get 28mpg hwy with a 303 hp V8.

There are a few posts in this thread that point out that people know other people that have trucks that are rarely used to haul anything, so reduced payload doesn't really matter. I also know people who underutilize their pickups, but our data on pickup buyer behavior indicates the following:

• Toyota's first entry into the large pickup market failed because the vehicle had too short a bed and not enough hauling capability
• Hauling capability and 4WD both have a huge 2nd user impact. What that means is, the second owner tends to make purchase decision of the used vehicle based on whether or not the vehicle has 4WD and/or sufficient payload capacity. While the 1st buyer might not use all the capability of the truck, they tend to be aware (through residual and resale values) that they'll get more for the truck when they part with it if it has 4WD and good hauling capacity. The second buyer is usually more prone to use the truck as a work truck and is looking to buy the best, already depreciated vehicle they can buy.

Peace,

James

 

To a large degree such skepticism is well earned. I, on the other hand, am confident that GM can show you it knows how to get it right. I've seen the products and I've reviewed the test data (As I type this I'm getting paged to get my **** into a meeting to discuss truck hybrid planning volumes )


Those were Jim Press' words, not mine. I happen to agree with him, but those words came from Toyota, not GM.

I understand your point, but I'd like you to notice that DCX, Ford, and now Toyota are barking up that same tree.

Peace,

James

 

Wayne,

I'm not ignoring you. As I mentioned, I'm heading into a rather lengthy meeting. It will take me a lot of time to address the many points you made in your post.

Peace,

Martin