How to respond to all these great replies... Ok, a few comments. Yes I do consider other factors beyond mileage, as indicated by comments on the Smart car. (Though I think the Smart car gets dismal mileage for such a tiny car!) But yes, I would consider safety, some handling concerns, etc. But obviously from what I drive, I can't be entirely picky. Sure I would like this and that, but I am in the very very middle of the middle class.

Otoh, I am ON PURPOSE comparing a Prius or HCH with the Corolla. I do know these are not equivalent cars. I do know there are all sorts of goodies that i do not have on my car now (nor in all probabilities even need or care about). But let's really take the best the car makers have in terms of gas mileage and compare with these (or at least compare what I already have). I am doing this as at the moment there is no Honda Fit hybrid or Fitish Hybrid (at least as we don't know what that car may be or even if it will exist). So since there is currently no economy car to compare it to, can you compare anyway? Would a Prius pay for itself in gas? That is literally my question. Obviously though of course NO car pays for itself so it is kind of a comparison of gas savings cost period.

I don't really know if the mileage calculator someone posted is accurate but over the life of the car the gas savings would definitely pay. If you start adding to the price of gas the difference is even greater. Yes, I have no doubt gas will go up. Why shouldn't it? There is no pressure for it to go down and every single pressure is on it to go up.


Now someone made the comment that the kind of statement I made is for someone who is skeptical of the technology or whatever. That is DEFINITELY NOT true. I am totally crazy about the Prius and like the HCH quite a lot, and if truth be told I am kind of geek. But with my income I would really have to justify that sort of thing. I am at a point where I probably could buy one (next year) but it would have to be justified in someway in my mind, as it is a lot more money upfront. It does not come down quite as easily to me as maybe it would be to someone else who might be in a different income bracket. Some of the luxury items are nice but frankly way way unnecessary to me and not something I am even used to. I don't really require hauling capacity or being able to put more people in the car. (However, Though I know there are people in my income bracket with similar financial debts etc. with hybrids-- so it isn't totally a crazy consideration.)

Also I have heard about tax credits, etc. But I heard these might be going away or decreasing???


BTW, I am sorry if someone finds this tiresome. This subject may be rehashed, but I have never actually read it worded quite so bluntly. If you are tired of answering don't, but I am new to all these forums and haven't really seen it. Yes, i could go try and find it in the archives but if they wanted me to get it easier they would put in an FAQ. These sorts of archives are never that easy to find something in, imo.

Also to figure out the cost of the technology I figured a HCH over a conventional Honda, and started adding the stuff in a common package. I couldn't figure out the Prius as I didn't know about the Matrix being a similar car. Basically some of the stuff is in the "deluxe model" that i have and like (auto doors, windows, etc.), a/c (a necessity imo) some of the stuff would be desirable to me like ABS, but just wasn't around that much for the 96, and some is totally unnecessary in my book.



--des

 

I agree that if your interest is to compare car of the same category, you would have to compare a prius to something else. But that is not necessary!! Anyone can compare a car's cost of ownership to any other car. It could be Hummer for all I care. The reason I picked corolla was simply because that was mentioned by Des. It also makes much sense to compare the prius to a corolla if you are an mpg conscious buyers and could care less about the bells and whistles.

Irrespective, the result of your analysis is not that much different to mine particularly if you stretch the ownership from 4 to the 5 yrs instead.

 

Three points..

1) If total transportation costs are the key factor in your choice then buying a good 3-5 year old Civic or Corolla or Matrix is by far the best choice. This has never been disputed.

2) If you are decided on getting a new vehicle first decide on the price level that's comfortable, if that's the key criteria, and don't exceed it; e.g. $17-$19K.

3) If you have more latitude and can choose between comparable vehicles then just be aware that your total monthly cost of either a non-hybrid or a hybrid will be about the same over the first 5-6 yrs. It's a few dollars a month difference. It's about $0.60 per day, that's all.

Prius $466 / mo
Matrix XR $442 / mo

If you act before 9-30 then you may get an addition benefit from the IRS.


If your choice is between a Civic or HCH then it really is a no brainer when comparing comparable vehicles. The $2100 credit on the Honda is not going to expire for some time. You will spend much less over 5 yrs for the HCH than the ICE version.

 

The real problem is that no hybrid out there comes with a striped down version. The hybrids are all offered as a premium level. The HCH is like the Civic EX in features.

It would be nice to offer a "DX or LX" equivalent. The reason that won't happen is that manufacturers are not stupid. They are not making a ton off of the hybrids as is, to market them downmarket is still risky because the demand is not there (nor could they afford to mark the technology any lower).

So, I've always been a fan of apples to apples comparison so that the cost is fairly reflected... but I can see where you would like to compare a car that has all the features to one that is stripped down. They both are the same as far as size and would probably meet your needs.

 

I just used a Corolla in my comparison as that is what i drive (96 with 100,000 miles to be more precise). so that's why I mention it. I might not buy a Corolla as maybe it wasn't my first choice to begin with. But to be honest it has been a good car (knock on wood). And I am getting decent mileage (33, with little old lady driving techniques :-)). I have been thinking of a new/used car for the last year or so as I have a fairly long commute. But so far.... (knock on wood again). I do not wish to publicly speak ill of my car. ;-)

Livvie, I am not sure that they will not ever make a more economy model hybrid as there are rumors (which Honda refuses to deny) of a sort of Fit (sedan though) but kind of between the Fit and Civic. The hybrid aspect would also be cheaper being closer to $2000 than $4000. These are rumored to go on sale in 2008 or 2009. There are other posts elsewhere on this. So if this happens i will happily snap it up, but I am not holding my breath. :-)
I am also not sure demand isn't there, esp if the hybrid premium is less and you could get a nice little tax incentive as well.


But why is the tax premium right now so different between a Civic Hybrid and a Prius? And yes, i would consider a regular Civic so I guess my question isn't just academic. I can see with the tax incentive how buying a regular Civic wouldn't make much sense-- I just don't get why its so different. My guess is there is no comparable model to a Prius, is that right? But I don't understand why they dont' just give x amt for a car getting a certain EPA mileage figure and be done with it. It's confusing.


--des

 

It has to do with the law that Congress passed putting the tax incentive in place. They limited the full credit to 60000 units ( + one full quarter's of sales after the 60000 limit was reached ). Thereafter the incentive was cut by 50% for two more quarters, then cut again to 25% for two more quarters, after which the incentive goes to $Zero.

The original incentive on the Prius was $3150.
Toyota reached it's 60K limit in May of 2006. Thus for 3rd Q 2006 the full credit was available. For Q4 2006 and Q1 2007 it was cut in half. for Q2 and Q3 2007 it's now 25% of the original amount. On 10-1-07 it goes to zero.

Honda has not yet reached it's 60000 unit limit so the full credit still applies. Neither have Ford nor GM nor Nissan reached their respective 60K limits.

 

I am in a bit of a tissy mood so excuse me but if you can't...tough! I am going to say it bluntly to some of you folks replying to Des questions. I understand that most of you are trying to help with an accurate and fair comparisons and thereby convince her a hybrid is a better investment, but it really does not help the cause if you are not answering her questions and needs but instead answering questions that you think she should be asking. Please stop this comparison with the Matrix. Rule #1 in any counseling. Listen and Listen and Listen....I guess in this case would be Read Read and Read. (Ahem...I dont work in counseling, but it sure sounds like a good rule to follow.)

Des. Ever since getting the TCH, I have found it an excellent past time to check out what others have been saying about hybrids. No I dont mind a bit responding to your questions. I have been spending too much of my off-hours on work, so spending more time elsewhere is my way of sticking it to the man (at work and at the big oil companies).


First off, the break down of tax incentives (as Bob laid out very nicely) was introduced by the legislators for one purpose, i.e., to introduce competition in the hybrid market. Congress do not likely want to be viewed as biasing a single company. By introducing such measure, buyers will consider buying from manufacturers other than Toyota. Not sure if this bill was lobbied by manufacturers other than Toyota, perhaps someone else can shed some light on this.

You mentioned being able to afford a replacement by next year. In my opinion, you are in no urgent need to replace the corolla. Your 96/100K corrola is low in mileage. Keeping the car you have is going to be cheaper than buying either a 08 hybrid or the '08 corolla. Even if your maintenance cost is of the order of $1000 for the year, you may still be better off keeping it. If you are really interested in true cost, you should call your insurance agent and compare the cost of insuring the new cars of your interest. That extra cost will lower your gain in gas savings.

If mpg rather than environmental factors is your main concern for getting a hybrid, then it would bode well for you to hold out as long as possible. The newer LiIon technology may not be available by 08, but there are rumors that plugins of the current version may become available. Its not going to improve the mileage by much from recent speculations, but I hope Toyota will pull off a surprise by '09,...perhaps a 80 mpg???

As I mentioned before, you still can make out ahead with a GenII Prius or HCH as long as you are not paying too much money for it. Note that many '05-'06 prius owners paid way above MSRP for their gen II prius. Those folks will not likely let those prius go for cheap so prius prices should stay pretty high. IMO, if you can get a Prius or HCH for invoice or under, you are definitely going to better off than a '08 corolla, especially if you can hypermile. Its a gamble but I would wager by 2012 that any hybrid drive train is going to worth more a conventional ICE only car! What would i wager you ask? I would wager my whole year gasoline cost in 2012. (Ahem...there's a good chance i might own a volt then)

Hope that helps.

 

This is an excellent answer. And I would agree very much that this is more of an answer than some of the answers were. One may not LIKE comparing a Prius with a Corolla because they are not strictly speaking comparable cars. But supposedly the Prius was made to get excellent gas mileage, etc. Is it really excellent enough?? I mean if the primary reason you get the car is for mpg and environmental concerns. And I think that's my basic question. After all, I believe that the Corolla (or Yaris say) are meant to be the gas mileage cars-- and Corolla was advertised that way back in the day. (Still is, think I saw something in a Toyota ad to that effect.)
If your getting the car for comfort of some other thing, than that's something different.

Though strictly speaking I don't mean that you all are going to solve my problems and really answer my questions. This is just an online forum, and I understand that coming in. I do feel that there is a certain antagonism to my questions by some however. Maybe they should just stop reading, rather than read more.

I was very curious that you considered a 100 K car low miles!! Sounds high miles to me. I do realize there are Corollas out there still ticking at 300K- maybe that's a big exception. I am concerned with a 30 mile commute and how long such a car is really reliable. But I agree there is no big hurry.
I don't know the difference between someone with a 100 K car doing, say, little runs to the grocery store or around a college campus, etc. vs a car that goes on the highway, etc. So if someone knows anything on that topic I'd be interested.

Yes, there is "real costs". I have thought about insurance, for which my payments are so laughably low it isn't funny. I might have paid more ten years ago, and think I did! (Hartford has great rates thru AARP but I would pay more for a newer car.)

I think I have mpg *and* environmental concerns. Actually pluginamerica.com urges people NOT to buy new until there is a plug in available. The author of Plug-In Hybrids (am reading this) discusses how hybrid technology has been used for performance gains vs real mpg gains.
I'd like a Volt, too. Mind you I don't actually expect there to be one and think the plug in Prius (made by Toyota) will exist.

Anyway, I appreciated your comments.

--des

 

Des - please just buy a new car...

 

She is just working out the price-performance model "out loud." Other than correcting a few flaws, it reminds me of the issues I faced in September 2005. By Oct 2005, I had my used Prius. She is just lining up the arguments for when time eventually takes her current ride away. No need to hurry or rush, think it through first.

Bob Wilson