What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
#101
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
This isn't about cheap plastic crap, this is about buying anything and everything. Everything you buy released CO2 into the air. It was manufactured (or cultivated). It was shipped. You had it delivered or you picked it up. Real conservation and environmentalism is not glamorous.
I'm sure there is a pretty strong relationship between how much money you spend every year and what your carbon footprint is.
I'm sure there is a pretty strong relationship between how much money you spend every year and what your carbon footprint is.
#102
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by Tim K
What are all of these magical hybrid components that supposedly cost all of this extra energy to make? Really, what is it but a battery and an electric motor? Does anyone think that producing these two items uses significantly more CO2 than it does to make a normal vehicle? I mean, we should also take into consideration how much more CO2 it takes to make a V6 as compared to the 4 cyl engine in the Hybrid. I'm sure someone could find data to determine how much CO2 is produced to make a NiMH battery....and we've got what 180 of them in the back?
If Honda says it costs them $2500US extra to make a hybrid, how much do you think is energy input (including input from suppliers and their suppliers)?
They have the motor, battery, different display, some sort of electronic controllers, a different transmission, something that controls the amount of energy flowing between batteries and motor, high current cables. Do they have something to step down the voltage for other components? They also have a different engine with special valve controls too.
#103
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
Well since they are two completely different cars, it might be possible that production of the entire Insight did use over 12.6 tons of CO2 vs the Echo. Maybe it didn't. I don't know.
The point is, the manufacturer's don't publish this stuff. Therefore, you don't know how green the car really is. I wish they would make the info available, but I also realize that it would be a difficult number to compute. The manufacturers are only partially responsible for the actual CO2 output. How do they account for all the steel, plastics, and everything else?
The point is, the manufacturer's don't publish this stuff. Therefore, you don't know how green the car really is. I wish they would make the info available, but I also realize that it would be a difficult number to compute. The manufacturers are only partially responsible for the actual CO2 output. How do they account for all the steel, plastics, and everything else?
#104
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
....I'm sure there is a pretty strong relationship between how much money you spend every year and what your carbon footprint is.
#105
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
This looks interesting. I'm not done reading it yet.
"Impacts of EV Battery Production and Recycling"
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/239.pdf
"Impacts of EV Battery Production and Recycling"
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/239.pdf
#106
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
They're using a 25kwh battery in the report since it is for EV vehicles. If you assume 1.3kwh for a Prius battery, the energy usage in electricity is $300 at $0.08kwh. IF the primary power is exclusively electricicity from coal, the production of the battery emits the same amount of CO2 as 368 gallons of gas.
I'm sure there are other less CO2 intensive energy inputs that lower that number, but I think this makes a point, since these batteries are said to be about $500 kwh, the battery ends up being 50% plus energy costs. And since you're paying $3 a gallon to make up the difference, you'd have to save as much as $1104 just to break even from a CO2 perspective. That's before any of the other couple thousand dollars with of stuff going into the hybrid system.
I'm sure there are other less CO2 intensive energy inputs that lower that number, but I think this makes a point, since these batteries are said to be about $500 kwh, the battery ends up being 50% plus energy costs. And since you're paying $3 a gallon to make up the difference, you'd have to save as much as $1104 just to break even from a CO2 perspective. That's before any of the other couple thousand dollars with of stuff going into the hybrid system.
#107
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
This looks interesting. I'm not done reading it yet.
"Impacts of EV Battery Production and Recycling"
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/239.pdf
"Impacts of EV Battery Production and Recycling"
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/239.pdf
But this document is from 10 years ago. How relevant can it be?
The document concludes as follows:
Production and recycling of EV batteries may have significant energy and environmental consequences. All process details must receive careful attention during battery design and construction to minimize possible impacts. However, there appear to be no "show-stoppers" -- potentially devastating impacts or major technical or institutional barriers caused by production and recycling of battery materials -- preventing the introduction of EVs on a large scale.
Last edited by chucko; 08-12-2006 at 12:34 PM.
#108
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
CaptainObvious: You're assuming that every power plant uses coal. Out here in Maryland, we use natural gas and nuclear. The CO2 footprint on the Calvert Cliffs facility has to be close to zero. So if you had a PHEV in this state, you'd have a real positive effect on vehicle emmissions.
#109
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Well, the article is about the manufacturing of the battery itself. The article uses btu as the measurement of energy spent building a battery from scratch. I used electric from coal as a worst case example, but realize that electricity from coal is about the cheapest energy you can get, so it's going to be preferable when available.
In all likelyhood transport and mining energy expenditures were oil based. But the study doesn't break that down.
Chucko, despite the fact that the report is a bit dated, it does illustrate that quite a bit of energy goes into the production of a battery. Maybe someone can find something more current.
In all likelyhood transport and mining energy expenditures were oil based. But the study doesn't break that down.
Chucko, despite the fact that the report is a bit dated, it does illustrate that quite a bit of energy goes into the production of a battery. Maybe someone can find something more current.
#110
Re: What is it with the "hybrids are expensive and don't pay off" myth in the media?
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
They're using a 25kwh battery in the report since it is for EV vehicles. If you assume 1.3kwh for a Prius battery, the energy usage in electricity is $300 at $0.08kwh. IF the primary power is exclusively electricicity from coal, the production of the battery emits the same amount of CO2 as 368 gallons of gas.
I'm sure there are other less CO2 intensive energy inputs that lower that number, but I think this makes a point, since these batteries are said to be about $500 kwh, the battery ends up being 50% plus energy costs. And since you're paying $3 a gallon to make up the difference, you'd have to save as much as $1104 just to break even from a CO2 perspective. That's before any of the other couple thousand dollars with of stuff going into the hybrid system.
I'm sure there are other less CO2 intensive energy inputs that lower that number, but I think this makes a point, since these batteries are said to be about $500 kwh, the battery ends up being 50% plus energy costs. And since you're paying $3 a gallon to make up the difference, you'd have to save as much as $1104 just to break even from a CO2 perspective. That's before any of the other couple thousand dollars with of stuff going into the hybrid system.