Recently I was posting how to backup one's mileage database records when I ran into:
Now one of the golden rules is "don't feed the troll" and that remains the case today. But sometimes it is cathartic to reply in kind but not in someone else's house. For this, the "Anything goes" forum will do:
No, it is just you and your trollish behavior. It reminds of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail:"

Really? Gosh darn, I am shocked, shocked to hear that there is any doubt from such an example and representative of these "fine folks" as yourself.
The practice of a troll is to hijack a thread, to drive it away from the original subject and change it into a quarrel ... a public quarrel if possible. Well here is a nice place for a fine, multiple course meal, enjoy. But trolling is theft by any other name and not what we associate with "fine folks" such as yourself.
Since it is so self-evident, you simply had to practice a troll's trick and try to hijack a thread by this nonsense. But since I'm serving a multiple course meal for the troll, let's start with the Wiki definition of a cult:

• A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially - Eileen Barker; Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality - Eileen Barker
• Making sharp distinctions between us and them ... that are not open for discussion - Eileen Barker; The persecuted chosen - Canadian Security Intelligence Service; Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong" - Shirley Harrison
• Actions by Authorities [show rjw] lack of comprehension - Canadian Security Intelligence Service; The organization is willing to place itself above the law - James R. Lewis
• A powerful leader who claims ... special mission - Shirley Harrison; Provide an authority figure that everyone seems to acknowledge as having some special skill or awareness - Steve Eichel
• Deceptive recruitment - Shirley Harrison; Promise instant or imminent solutions to deep or long-term problems - Steve Eichel
• The leader sets forth ethical guidelines members must follow but from which the leader is exempt - James R. Lewis; The leader regularly makes public assertions that he or she knows is false and/or the group has a policy of routinely deceiving outsiders - James R. Lewis

So in January 2006 after Jason sold GreenHybrid.com, there was a separation led by the leader of CleanMPG. There remains a sharp distinction between CleanMPG advocates and everyone else to the point that civil discussions in other forums really doesn't happen. So you' all finally decided that tailgating semi-trailer trucks is bad but turning off engines in traffic is OK? Then there is "Eco Driving," the response to "hypermiling" by both California and AAA. The leader who last I knew, still owns no hybrid and of course the "fine folks" who until this last year were using inflated claims to lure in CleanMPG membership.
In this all I have to do is point my "lying eyes" on the CleanMPG mileage database. My 'lying eyes' see no baseline performance in CleanMPG but just a straight list of individual records tagged with a "Status" titles such as:

• Expert
• Skilled
• Elite

This was the egotistical nonsense I had seen a year and a half ago, the last time I looked. I'm not surprised that it remains true today. That is not a database but a list of 'bowling trophies' and just as useless.
A typical troll uses insults, "true career engineer," as well as false choices. It is a shame because it means there is little or no chance of a civil dialog. When and if you are ever able to pose something we can discuss, I look forward to the dialog. Perhaps you might find something in the Prius FAQ?
So the staff and moderators at CleanMPG own their own hybrids or do some of them just borrow or rent them for driving stunts? Consistency means walking the walk and putting vehicle ownership money where their mouth is. But again, our 'lying eyes' notice that your "fine folks" mileage database includes non-hybrids. That is promoting hybrids?
Deny, heck I'm quite happy about the CleanMPG crowd leaving GreenHybrid instead of abusing our forums to troll for members. CleanMPG has always been welcome to be like any other contributing member and bring value to GreenHybrid. But SPAM is when someone, anyone, attempts to sell or promote their business in user forums without bringing value. An internet forum is not a suicide pact and abusers should find other playgrounds.
Ironically we both agree that "fundamental and narrow minded mediocrity" may someday need to be banned. But it would be easier if you would just stop logging in.

Again from Wiki:
This is why I've replied here. We can discuss your trollish behavior without disrupting other groups. The other alternative was to take it to "Fred's House of Pancakes" but you know, I don't troll ... but don't let my ethics and respect for other forums impede your efforts. <GRINS>
What? What? You mean they may not be selling advertising space? I'm shocked! <grins>

The PriusChat folks are of course free to pursue their business model and I wish them well.
Selecting a mileage database is a question of requirements, the goals and objectives. The requirements should dictate the design and implementation. But that doesn't excuse your trollish behavior.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob, did ANY of this happen over here at GreenHybrid?
If not, why post this rant here?

 

Hi Steve,
It didn't happen here but the problem was how to deal with Msantos trollish posting. Now I could have replied in the original thread and that would have been exactly what the troll wants. Think of them as sociopaths with no interest in the community versus their instantanious personal desires. That was exactly what we were faced with.

My first response was to send a note to the moderators citing his attack on my honesty. Ordinarily a personal attack is enough to get the posting moved or quieted down. But that didn't happen. So we had a damaged thread terminated in the rantings of a sociopath.

So I reposted my original posting in that thread with the troll's opinion about CleanMPG to get the thread back on subject. A moderator came in later and trimmed out redundant text, which I agree with. Regardless, the thread returned to the original subject and the troll lost.

BTW, I did consider posting my reply in the equivalent to "Anything goes" called "Freds House of Pancakes." But you know, the troll's attack was not just on me but also the civility of the other forum. There was no reason to 'trash' another site's relative peace for a quarrel that he has with me or the GreenHybrid team.

I then posted my detailed response here, in "Anything goes." One thing I know for sure is the troll would rather walk on hot coals than come back to GreenHybrid.com. His personal animus and lack of self discipline knows no bounds. Yet somehow, I suspect he has managed to read this posting anyway. Perfect revenge for getting me to look again at the CleanMPG "database" after a year and a half.

I've had to deal with SPAMmers, trolls and telemarketers (on Friday a cell phone call for one of those bogus car warranty scams.) But I've come to realize the only thing that works is to stand up to them in a way the forces them in a corner they don't want to be in. A chess player, I happen to have some skills in that department. After all, it is better to give an ulcer than receive and sometimes a little fun. <grins>

Will the trolls follow me back here? I doubt it but you never know. But frankly I hope they 'get a clue by four.' I hope they will just leave me and my friends alone ... but sociopaths seldom work that way.

Bob Wilson

 

Few people bother to discuss Honda Civic, unless they're modding/racer and/or young. Much less the hybrid version. It's a reliable and efficient car that doesn't need all the hand-holding. He kept discussion traffic artificially high and now I know why.

In the absence of testing and sampling from others, "Tarabell"'s essay (hosted you-know-where) was treated like the fricken' Bible, and criticism of the safety of "hypermiling" was disregarded. Your car isn't performing like it should? Go read "Tarabell"'s essay. That's the first thing you must do . . .

 

I'd started to bemoan Msantos but you know, it quickly becomes a waste of time. My real interest is a good, total cost of ownership database and that remains, after three years, quite elusive.

There is a model for a good database, one that would certainly attract my participation:Regardless of the vehicle, they follow this pattern:
Cost of ownership is more than just miles per gallon but also includes everything from purchase to subsequent used vehicle sale, insurance and maintenance. Sad to say, none of the online mileage database address these important cost issues and that is a shame.

What is maddening is finding parts of the database at different web sites but they are not integrated. For example, consumer product safety has user reported maintenance problems; the EPA has a mileage database and; Ebay provides daily purchase and sales prices.

It is also maddening that Consumer Reports has internal processes to track vehicle life-cycle costs but they haven't opened it up to their members. They even send out an annual membership survey but have yet to step over the line from paper to web and make it a service, even for fee, to their members. <grumble grumble grumble>

Well I'm off to work. Chat at you later.

Bob Wilson

 

I suppose this response will get me severely punished but, if it does, then so be it. The preceding post seems to be a version of exactly what you are denouncing elsewhere on other forums. Please don't take this as me taking sides on whether or not your opinion is justified because that is not my intent in any way. My point is that posts like that make it difficult to distinguish between the two points. I hope I still get to hang around and learn.

I should note that I drive the same way(for maximum safe mileage) despite whatever title I may be awarded/assigned.

 

Actually mine was a reply relocated to this forum in response to a trollish post at another site. This forum that is wide open for such discussions since the biggest part of Msanto's complaint was about GreenHybrid and the moderators, including me. If folks want to disagree, here is the place to air it out.
No problem here since this is "Anything goes." <grins>

Had Msantos stated his concern in "Fred's House of Pancakes," again, no problem. The problem was interrupting a technical answer and evaluation of four separate databases. Even the databases could have been discussed dispassionately and with attention to facts and data and there would have been no problem. But that was neither the tone nor the effect of his post.

I have been married to the same woman for over 30 years and every time she drives, I'm a nervous wreck. When I drive, she complains,"You're letting that truck pass you?" Married, our driving goals and objectives are different. But I share the goals and many of the objectives of:You realize this effort started because of the "hypermiling" stunts. Things like jumping out of a car in a parking lot in a summer day to push it around. The "ice pack vest" and other stunts converted what should have been a simple set of guidelines into a reaction by both State governments as well as AAA. We'll chat some more later but I had one quick if somewhat unrelated question:
Bob Wilson

 

I found the post at priuschat and it looks like you tried to badmouth the cleanmpg dudes with your post and he called you out
Anyways I am not a member at their site cause they are a bit too much for me but from his greenhybrid posting he doesnt look trolly or crazy. he's writes very nice and helpful and his advice and tarabell's helped me double my mileage to.
kinda hard to believe hes a troll. I guess its ok for you to say he is if you hate him. kinda makes sense anyways.

 

Hi Kevin,
It always helps to work from the facts and data:
If you think these are 'bad mouthing' then we'll have to agree to disagree:

• I am appalled to find drivers received "titles".
• Their practices have nothing to do with baseline vehicle performance but appears to be oriented around some ego contest to see who can achieve some personal best . . . ego worship.

I fully stand by these observations, which can be and should be confirmed by visiting the CleanMPG site and looking at their mileage database.

Yes, he was better behaved here as were many of the others who left to form CleanMPG. This web site has history of being intolerant of personal attacks and will shutdown anyone who attacks another person's character in a heartbeat. Folks here can agree to disagree but we don't have to be disagreeble.
Good! I have no doubt that he has some skill with his vehicle.
I've not cited any other posting by Msantos as being trollish and one trollish post does not a troll make. Everyone makes a mistake from time to time and the beauty of "edit" is the ability to correct our mistakes and take the extreme elements out. Although it is uncomfortable, one can apologize and as an exercise, you might search for my username and the word apology. You'll find I'm not the least bit ashamed of being human and quick to beg forgiveness.

As for "hate," Msantos is not a SPAMer and hasn't been hanging around trying to sell something in our forums. Disappointed is more accurate but we don't need to go beyond this incident.

Bob Wilson

 

Why did you start this post? Get a grip!!! H