Greetings Hybriders-

This is an awesome community - I've been reading through hundreds (maybe thousands?) of posts over the last few days trying to learn everything I can.

So now that I'm completely confused, here's my story ...

I am committed to getting a hybrid car this time around. I was actually looking into using ZipCar because of my frequent travels, but it doesn't look like that will work out for me at this stage given their locations in the Boston area.

I've narrowed my search down to the TCH and the HCH - the Prius is out due to availability and "look and feel."

I've run the numbers (monthly cost for car, insurance, gas) and without any tax-credit figured in (in case I lease) - the TCH will cost me about $130/month (financing over 5 years, or about $8k) more than a HCH. Leasing over 36 months would be about $2,300 ($70/month) more. In my comparison, the TCH has more interior room, heated leather seats, moon roof, more power, all in all a more "premium" feel.

I currently have an Acura TSX (I *LOVE* that car- and am very bummed that Honda/Acura didn't see fit to have a hybrid model!) that is coming off lease in December. I'm "right-side-up" on the lease by about 15,000 miles due to a significant increase in business travel (planes and trains, not so much automobiles). Based on Edmunds valuations, I should be able to trade-in the car for about $5k more than my lease will let me buy it for.

If any of you kind folks have thoughts on these questions - I'd appreciate any insights or advice! ...

1) How much of a step down is the Camry from an Acura TSX. Based on features and an initial "butt in the seat" check, they seem pretty comparable. How much of the "Acura" fit/finish will I find lacking (if any)?

2) Will I have better luck on the trade-in situation using a Honda or Toyota dealer - or does that even matter?

3) Long-term ownership costs - the batteries and electric motors - am I better off leasing this time around until these are better understood? Is the tax credit worth stronger consideration (TCH will be 1/2 of what it is now, based on what I'm reading, which HCH will be $2100)?

4) Does anyone have any recommendations for a Toyota dealer in the Boston area (I'm in Arlington)?

That's about all for now- I'm assuming that I need to make a decision soon in order to make sure I have a new car ready for the early December timeframe.

Cheers - and thanks in advance for any pointers!
-Marc

 

I have come from Infiniti I30, I35 then 04 TL and 06 TL to a TCH and while I do miss aspects of my TL I was ready to give up the performance becasue I was tired of $46 fill ups every 5-6 days. Going from a TSX you will miss the handling and performance, but if you can look past that I think you'll be happy. Going to a HCH will be a big step, going to a TCH will be a smaller step. I have driven a TSX, but my observations are more TL based:

TL had more supportive seats, compared toa TSX the TCH you will feel like you are swimming in the seats. The HCH will be a closer seat to what you are used to.

Sound system in TCH is awesome and is better than the 5.1 DVD-A in the TL. The HCH has a meager 160W system.

The HCH will handle closer to your TSX, but the performance will be meek. The TCH is a tad sluggish off the line, but when the ICE and EV are working together you have close to V6 performance. The TCH is soft and tends to lean in turns more, but is a nice luxurious ride. The TL was an awesome machine that I never thought twice if the car would hanlde what I would through at it. The TCH is ok, but you will not be doing any sport driving.

Acura/Honda year one cars are not the best with fit and finish, my 04 TL was a squeak and rattle bucket. My 06 TL was tight and quiet. I find the TCH to be a little loose feeling in the fit and finish department. I think the HCH will feel tighter, but as the current Civic is a year one car I suspect it is likely to have issues as well. The current TCHs are coming from Japan, Civics from Canada, you do the math on country or origin Quality. The biggest common complaint ont he TCH seems to be a center console squeak. I have had that and some back deck vibrations, both of which I have fixed myself.

The TCH has plenty of room is a fince car, the Civic will feel like a less expensive car and is tighter than your TSX inside. The TCH in my opinion has better styling and lines.

TCH did 5 stars in all crash test and excellent in IIHS tests except for whiplash. I beleive the Civic was close but did only 4 stars.

I was an agressive driver in my TL, I loved driving fast and hard. I have quickly adjusted to being a more relaxed and passive driver in the TCH, and actually less stressed with driving. I miss my TL, but am glad I have the TCH. The only TCH regret I have is getting port leather, it sucks, would prefer the near-Lexus level Toyota factory leather. Also wish I could have gotten a TCH with NAV, although from what I have seen and heard the Honda NAV is far superior to the Toyota NAV.

The TCH dash lights are lame, too bright at night and if you adjust them for night then they are too dim during the day. The TL had a great setup, when lights were off dash was MAX, when lights were on they were where you dimmed them, or coudl hit a MAX button to bring them to MAX, hit it again and they were back to dim.

Toyota ergonomics are a little confusing, inside door pull seems to be in a bad spot. Civic/Honda ergonomics are better, but if you have long legs like me, then the brake handle in the HCH will dig into your knee or leg.

TCH has huge glove box and center console for storage, HCH much smaller.

Rear legroom in TCH is large, HCH will be as tight or tighter than your TSX.

HCH will get better mileage than a TCH, but not by much, and surely once you consider the huge size and weight difference the TCH seems to be a great deal. My TL got 21-22 MPG using premium, my TCH is getting upwards of 35-36 lately using regular.

 

My other car is a Lexus SC430, and I've owned various Acuras. I have more fun driving the Camry than any of them. Find a dealer who has one to test drive. Good luck!

 

Kluken - that was EXACTLY the kind of insight (or is it validation?) that I was hoping to hear - many, many thanks for your thoughtful words.

Steven - that's both great to hear - and great advice.

From "initial look & sit" the TCH impressed me. I'll look forward to test driving one this week.

Again - many thanks for the insights!

-Marc

 

Although not an Acura, I came from a CaddySTS into my TCH, and I also just sold my 97 Paseo (compact). So I can still give you insights about what I miss about luxury performance sedans and going to either the TCH or a compact (in your case, HCH). When we were looking for a car, we also were deciding between the TCH and the HCH.

1) Power - I could step on the gas in the STS, and be at 100mph in a matter of seconds. And the car felt like it was doing 55mph, rev-ing at 3000rpm and not a hint of road or wind noise. While you can hit those speeds in the TCH, it will take a half-minute or so to get to that speed, and you will hear plenty of wind and road noise. In the compact, you might never get to that speed, and if you do, you're going to be hanging onto the steering while for dear life. Doing 75 in my Paseo felt like I was about to fly off the face of the planet. So do I miss the power and handling of my STS? Yes, but the TCH is a capable handling car.

2) Comfort - the STS had 10-way power heated driver seat, and 6-way power heated pass seat. Leather was standard. In the TCH, you can get the leather, and you can get the heated seats, but now the pass power seat (to my knowledge) in the compromise for weight. Even in the standard seats, the TCH is pretty comfortable, but probably not going to be anything like your Acura. And as for the HCH, it will be a huge step down. When I switched between my STS and my Paseo, it was like night and day, and I longed to get back into the STS. In the TCH, I am comfortable enough that I don't miss the STS (although I wish I had that left armrest in the TCH!)

3) Gas - I commute 100 miles every day. With the STS at 23mpg, I had to gas up every third day (4 times every 2 weeks) with premium fuel, so it was costing me about $45 per tank. With the Paseo, I gained some fuel efficiency, but with the smaller tank, I was still filling up every third day with regular gas at $30 per tank. Now with the TCH, I am gassing up every 6th day at $40/tank regular gas. We figure I am saving $2k per year in gas switching from the STS to the TCH as my daily driver. The TCH is the clear winner in this dept.

4) Engine - Have you read all the reviews comparing the Honda hybrid powertrain against the Toyota HSD? They are very different, and will get different driving experiences, so make sure the one you choose fits your needs. Also, the HCH doesn't really get 51mpg as advertised. That is the EPA rating, which is kinda useless measurement for hybrids. Consumer Reports came up with "real-life" 38-40mpg for the HCH, which is actually the same fuel mileage as the TCH. How does such a bigger car get the same mileage as a compact? Again, this is due to the design differences in the two engines.

Figure the $2600 hybrid tax credit if you can get your TCH by the end of the month, and to me it's a no-brainer. We bought the TCH for the increased interior room, knowing this is a car that would last our family a while. Also, for commuting 100 miles per day, the comfort level was far superior in the TCH than the HCH.

Now, if you live in a major city, where parking is at a premium, then having the smaller car might be worthwhile. Also, for cities that give HOV access to hybrid vehicles, the HCH might have the advantage due to it's high EPA fuel rating. Here in CA, only hybrids that get more than 45mpg EPA are allowed to have the HOV stickers, so the HCH and Prius qualify, but the TCH doesn't. Luckily, I don't have HOV lanes on my commute and don't need the stickers, but this is a big reason why Prius are a hot item here in CA.

Hope this helps.

FlopShot

 

We figure I am saving $2k per year in gas switching from the STS to the TCH as my daily driver

While it is a 1999 model and you got your use from it what was the depreciation on the STS and what would have been the replacement cost for a new one, similarly equiped?

 

Not to change this thread into a non-TCH thread, but the 99STS was $50k new. I bought it used in 2002 with 34k miles (it came off of a 3yr lease) for $27k. I sold it early this year with 75k miles for $12k, and that was including a $2500 set of 19" wheels and new tires. A new STS is still about $50k, but it's a much better car now (e.g. rear wheel drive). I also put at least $5k in non-routine maintenance in 4 years, with the biggest being $3k to replace blown head gasket at 62k (right after the factory warranty ran out). So I learned two things with that car: #1 - I'm never buying a lease-return vehicle again, and #2 - I'm always buying the extended warranty.

 

I neve rbuy extended warranty, but then I usually don;t keep cars that long, I also figure the odds of needed major repairs ona well maintained Asian car are far less than American cars.

 

Don't dismiss the Honda Accord Hybrid, it will be closer to the performance you are used to and you will still be in the Honda family of vehicles. Very happy with my Accord Hybrid.

 

Cap'n Jack- interesting point ... the TSX is a Euro-Accord - somewhere between Civic and Accord. I like the car - but the numbers just don't add up... the Accord Hybrid actually comes out as 2nd most expensive to lease behind the Acura RDX, and 4th most expensive to buy (most expensive Hybrid).

I should have shared this earlier, but here is my spreadsheet (based on the following assumptions):

- Gas price/gal: $3.00/reg, $3.20/prem
- 1,000 miles/month
- Lease terms: 36 mos, 12k miles/year
- Finance terms: 60 mos, 5% APR
- 70% city, 30% highway driving
- $100/mo insurance (range is $89-$106, so I just made it level)
- $4,800 trade-in (down payment on finance, cap cost reduction on lease)
- Calculations based on achieving 90% of EPA estimates

Mfg Year Model Lease Buy
Honda 2006 Civic H $496 $534
Toyota 2007 Camry XLEv6 $554 $689
Toyota 2007 Camry H $561 $668
Honda 2007 Accord EX-L $564 $636
Toyota 2006 Prius $599 $618
Acura 2006 TSX $601 $692
Acura 2006 TL $741 $806
Infiniti 2006 G35 $754 $873
Honda 2006 Accord H $764 $764
Acura 2007 RDX $810 $876


Now I didn't factor in any of the tax credits, so that may tilt things a little more towards Honda at this stage... but it's a pretty big difference. From what I can tell, it looks like Toyota is subsidizing their leases pretty nicely.


Cheers & thanks for the advice!,
Marc