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Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
In another thread, I posed the question a question regarding possible causes of TCH UA, looking for any real info on any possible problems other than floor mats.
After 2 weeks there were no replies. I am now posing the question in it's own thread in hopes of getting the attention of more readers. Note that the following question is specific to the Camry Hybrid: "Does anyone know of ANY reports of unintended acceleration (UA)- specifically on the Camry Hybrid - attributed to any cause other than the floor mats ?" |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
I'm not aware of any.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
If there haven't been any reports so far, there almost certainly will be. The publicity is generating new complaints to NHTSA and it's hard to believe that a TCH or two won't be included at some point before this fiasco dies down.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by lzc
(Post 218857)
If there haven't been any reports so far, there almost certainly will be. The publicity is generating new complaints to NHTSA and it's hard to believe that a TCH or two won't be included at some point before this fiasco dies down.
122 views (here, alone), 2 weeks (in other thread) and two days (here)....and counting ! With zero positive replies and two negative out of 122+ views. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Just guessing, this forum has about 20-30 active members and another 30-40 infrequent visitors or lurkers. You're not likely to find someone here who had UA. Not because it doesn't happen, but rather, it's such a rare occurrence that the likelihood that it happened to more than one member in such a small population is extremely remote.
You're better off searching Google to find reports (yeah, I know, there are 100 million hits if you search "Toyota UA") |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by haroldo
(Post 218861)
Just guessing, this forum has about 20-30 active members and another 30-40 infrequent visitors or lurkers. You're not likely to find someone here who had UA. Not because it doesn't happen, but rather, it's such a rare occurrence that the likelihood that it happened to more than one member in such a small population is extremely remote.
You're better off searching Google to find reports (yeah, I know, there are 100 million hits if you search "Toyota UA") And this group seems to be highly active and informed. In my opinion, a complete absence of any knowledge at all of any reports of other-caused TCH UA within this group is a pretty good indication that there simply are not any such, particularly in view of the likelihood (as expressed by lzc, above), that the current publicity will be bringing out such reports. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
I was only aware of your situation...my error.
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The Conclusion Re: Possible Causes of TCH UA
After three weeks and hundreds of views and with absolutely no positive replies to the question,
"Does anyone know of ANY reports of unintended acceleration (UA)- specifically on the Camry Hybrid - attributed to any cause other than the floor mats ?" I am ready to conclude that, at least as far as anyone here knows, there simply have been NO reported incidents of Toyota Camry Hybrid unintended acceleration except for the cases attributable to the floor mat entrapment. So, I consider Toyota's restriction of the TCH UA recall to to remedies for that cause only to be entirely proper. If only they had taken this measure (as well as the separate measures for the other cars) years ago when the problems first arose, they could have saved themselves a whole lot of grief and expense - and probably saved a some lives as well. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
As far as I can tell, the cause of UA in any Toyota is largely unknown. NHTSA has connected a few (5, I believe) accidents to floor mat problems, zero have been attributed to sticky accelerators, leaving the cause of all other accidents unknown.
Driver error? Gremlins in the software? There's a lot of territory here for speculation, even publicity-seeking accusations. Toyota is in full prostrate mode, offering up its best imitation of Tiger Woods. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by lzc
(Post 219212)
As far as I can tell, the cause of UA in any Toyota is largely unknown. NHTSA has connected a few (5, I believe) accidents to floor mat problems, zero have been attributed to sticky accelerators, leaving the cause of all other accidents unknown.
Driver error? Gremlins in the software? There's a lot of territory here for speculation, even publicity-seeking accusations. Toyota is in full prostrate mode, offering up its best imitation of Tiger Woods. And the answer, apparently, is that there are zero cases attributable to anything other than the floor mats. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
If you want to search for this issue... http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/
It's not a quick and easy page, but the info you seek might be there Interesting...one person submitted multiple claims...does that count as one or multiple 'incidents;? Report Date : February 24, 2010 at 01:53 PM Search Type : VEHICLE Year : 2008 Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10313296 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: June 20, 2009 VIN : Not Available Component: STEERING Summary: JUNE, 2009 MY 2008 CAMRY HYBRID VERED ACROSS TWO LANES OF TRAFFIC EVEN THOUGH I WAS HOLDING THE STEERING WHEEL AND DID NOT STEER THE VEHICLE IN THAT DIRECTION. ALSO, ON THAT SAME TRIP, WHEN ENGAGING CRUISE CONTROL, MY 2008 CAMRY STARTED TO ACCELERATE RAPIDLY, I DISENGAGED CRUISE CONTROL IMMEDIATELY, AND PUSHED THEN RELEASED THE GAS PEDAL AND IT CORRECTED. Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10313129 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: April 25, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46K98U... Component: UNKNOWN OR OTHER Summary: I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS A COMPLAINT AND WRITE AS I SEE THE TOYOTA PRIUS BRAKE INVESTIGATION. I HAVE A CAMRY HYBRID AND HAD A BRAKE PROBLEM LAST SPRING. ON SATURDAY 4-25-09, MY VSC/ABS/WARNING LIGHT CAME ON WHILE I WAS NEAR THE BAIERL CADILLAC DEALERSHIP. AS I HAD LEASED FROM BAIERL TOYOTA, I PULLED IN THE BAIERL CADILLAC SERVICE AS THE BRAKES FELT WRONG AND TOOK TWO FEET. THE CAR DID STOP. THEY CALLED BAIERL TOYOTA WHO SAID TO DRIVE UP UNLESS FLASHING WARNING LIGHTS. THE LIGHTS WERE STEADY SO I DROVE SLOWLY WITHOUT ANY ACCIDENT FROM 11410 PERRY HIGHWAY, WEXFORD PA TO 19045 PERRY HIGHWAY, MARS PA TO THE DEALERSHIP. I CALLED MONDAY (ORDERED PART), TUES (WAITING FOR PART FOR BRAKES) AND WED(PART IN MORNING -NEED COMPUTER TO CALIBRATE). THE CAR WAS RETURNED AND THE BRAKES SEEM FINE WITH NO FURTHER VSC/ABS LIGHTS. I DO NOT HAVE THE PARTS. I ASSUME THAT BAIERL TOYOTA, 19045 PERRY HIGHWAY, MARS, PA 16046 HAS THE RECORDS AND COULD TELL YOU MORE. I DID NOT PAY MORE ATTENTION AS IT WAS TAKEN CARE OF BY THE DEALERSHIP UNDER WARRANTY. MY FRIEND SUGGESTED THAT I NOTIFY YOU IN THE EVENT THAT THE HYBRID BRAKES ON THE CAMRY SHOULD ALSO BE CHECKED TO HELP SOMEONE ELSE. Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10311406 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: December 10, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46K28U... Component: SERVICE BRAKES, ELECTRIC Summary: AFTER MY CAR HAD BEEN PARKED OUTSIDE IN THE COLD (DECEMBER IN MINNEAPOLIS) FOR THE DAY, I NOTICED THAT, AT VERY SLOW SPEEDS (I.E. CRAWLING), THE BRAKES ON MY CAR TOOK LONGER THAN NORMAL TO BRING THE CAR TO A HALT. DESPITE MOVING VERY SLOWLY, WHEN I PRESSED HARD ON THE BRAKE, THE CAR STILL CONTINUED MOVING FOR SEVERAL FEET BEFORE I FELT THE BRAKES ENGAGE. I WAS IN A PARKING LOT, SO I TRIED DOING THIS SEVERAL TIMES, EACH WITH THE SAME RESULT. I DROVE HOME ON THE HIGHWAY AND COULD NOT DETERMINE WHETHER THE PROBLEM PERSISTED, BUT I HAVE NOT NOTICED THE SAME ISSUE SINCE. Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10310259 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: November 25, 2008 VIN : 4T1BB46K48U... Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL Summary: ON SEPT 25, 2007 WE PURCHASED FOR MY WIFE A NEW 2008 CAMRY HYBRID AT LONGO TOYOTA, EL MONTE, CA. SHE EXPERIENCED SEVERAL PROBLEMS (DEAD STARTER BATTERY FROM HEADLIGHTS STAYING ON OR COMING ON AFTER PARKING, CAR NOT DECELERATING WHEN FOOT TAKEN OFF ACCELATOR, ODD THINGS WITH AUTO DOOR LOCKS) THE FIRST MONTH, AND WHEN WE CALLED THE DEALER THEY TALKED US INTO ATTENDING A NEW OWNERS MEETING, SO WE COULD BECOME MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE CAR. WHEN WE BROUGHT THESE THING UP DURING THE MEETING, MOST OF IT WAS EXCUSED AS BEING UNFAMILIAR WITH THE CAR FEATURES, ALTHOUGH THEY TOOK THE CAMRY AND AFTER 15 MINUTES TOLD US NOTHING WAS WRONG WITH THE HEADLIGHTS. A SUPPOSED TOYOTA HEADQUARTERS REP STATED TO ME, "THE LITTLE WOMAN ISN'T THAT TECHO, IS SHE"? A MONTH LATER SHE WAS STOPPED GOING TO WORK IN THE EARLY MORNING BY CHP, FOR DRIVING WITHOUT HEADLIGHTS BEING ON, BUT WAS NOT TICKETED BECAUSE THE OFFICER WITNESSED THE HEADLIGHT SWITCH WAS ON. (WE STILL NOTICE THE HEADLIGHT DOING ODD THINGS, AND THE SWITCH IS IN THE ON POSITION, NOT THE AUTI POSITION). BACK TO THE DEALER, NO PROBLEM FOUND. EARLY NOVEMBER 2009 WE RECEIVED FROM TOYOTA MOTOR SALES USA A "POTENTIAL FLOOR MAT INTERFERENCE WITH ACCELERATOR PEDAL SAFETY RECALL CAMPAIGN (INTERM NOTICE)" WHICH STATED "WE WILL NOTIFY YOU AGAIN AS SOON AS A CAMPAIGN REMEDY IS AVAILABLE FOR YOUR VEHICLE". WE HAVE HEARD NOTHING SINCE THAT TIME, EXCEPT FOR A SEALED OVERSIZED BUSINESS ENVELOPE LAST WEEK, WHICH WAS NOT ABOUT A FIX TO THE VEHICLE PROBLEMS, BUT SALES MATERIALS ON THE NEW 5TH GENERATION 4RUNNER. TOYOTA IS STILL NOT OWNING UP TO ALL THE DEFECTS IN THE CAMRY HYBRID. Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10306021 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: January 31, 2010 VIN : JTNBB46K383... Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL Summary: 08" CAMRY HYBRID - WHEN SET ON CRUISE CONTROL, THE CAR INADVERTENTLY ACCELERATES PASS THE "SET" SPEED POINT WHEN GOING UP OR DOWN HILL, BY MORE THAN 20 MPH BEFORE I DISENGAGED THE CRUISE CONTROL. *JB Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10297991 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: November 1, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46K88U... Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL Summary: TL*THE CONTACT LEASED A 2008 TOYOTA CAMRY ON JANUARY 5, 2008. THE VEHICLE WOULD LUNGE FORWARD WHILE THE GEAR SHIFT SELECTOR WAS IN THE REVERSE POSITION. THE MANUFACTURER STATED THAT THERE WOULD BE A RECALL AND THEY COULD NOT FIX THE VEHICLE UNTIL APRIL 2010 WHEN THE RECALL PARTS WERE AVAILABLE. SHE WAS CONCERNED WITH HER SAFETY IN DRIVING THE VEHICLE UNTIL THEN. THE FAILURE AND CURRENT MILEAGES WERE UNDER 33,000. UPDATED 01/1410 *BF UPDATED 01/20/10.*JB Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : Yes Fire : No Number of Injuries: 1 ODI ID Number : 10290745 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: October 11, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46KX8U... Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL Summary: DROVE IN TO A PARK PARKING LOT, PULLED IN TO A PARKING SPACE WHEN ACCELERATOR PEDAL STUCK, BRAKES WENT OUT, RAN IN TO A TREE ABOUT FIVE OR SIX FEET AWAY. IF THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE TREE THERE I COULD HAVE RUN IN TO THE SOCCER GROUP A FEW HUNDRED FEET AWAY AND INJURED OR KILLED THEM AND ME. *TR Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10281336 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: May 19, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46K49U... Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL Summary: TL*THE CONTACT OWNS A 2008 TOYOTA CAMRY HV. THE MAT WHICH IS A PROTECTIVE MAT OVER THE STANDARD VEHICLE MAT CAUSED THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL TO GET STUCK UNDER THE MAT. ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS HE HAD TO STOP THE VEHICLE AND DISCONNECT THE MAT FROM THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 10,000. Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : Yes Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10275745 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: June 18, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46K18U... Component: FUEL SYSTEM, OTHER Summary: WHILE DRIVING APPROXIMATELY 65 MPH ON HWY, HYBRID SYSTEM FAILURE ALERT TURNED ON. NO OTHER INDICATORS ON. ENGINE TEMP WAS NORMAL. ATTEMPTED TO PULL OVER AFTER A FEW MILES AND CAR SEIZED UP, SMOKE WAS BILLOWING FROM ENGINE COMPARTMENT. SMALL FLAMES VISIBLE THROUGH GRILL AND WITHIN MINUTES ENTIRE ENGINE COMPARTMENT ENGULFED IN FLAMES. NO PRIOR PROBLEMS EXCEPT THAT ABOUT 6 WEEKS EARLIER THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT ILLUMINATED. I TOOK TO THE DEALER AND AFTER RUNNING COMPLETE ENGINE DIAGNOSTIC, DEALER ATTRIBUTED PROBLEM TO A LOOSE GAS CAP. AFTER THAT INCIDENT, THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT HAD NOT REAPPEARED. I HAD THE ENGINE OIL CHANGED AT THE DEALER 4 DAYS PRIOR TO INCIDENT. CAR HAD APPROXIMATELY 28,000 MILES. *TR Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10292482 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: January 1, 2008 VIN : 4T1BB46K18U... Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL:ACCELERATOR PEDAL Summary: APPROXIMATE INCIDENT DATE IS ENTIRELY INACCURATE. I DO NOT REMEMBER WHEN THIS HAPPENED, BUT PROBABLY MORE THAN A YEAR AGO EITHER IN A 2006 CAMRY OR A 2008 CAMRY HYBRID. I BELIEVE THIS TO BE RELATED TO NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID 09V388000. I AM CONCERNED BECAUSE "TOYOTA HAS DETERMINED THAT THIS DEFECT DOES NOT EXIST IN VEHICLES IN WHICH THE DRIVER SIDE FLOOR MAT IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE VEHICLE AND IS PROPERLY SECURED" AND BELIEVE THAT MY COMPLAINT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED CONCURRENTLY WITH THIS ONE. 1. MY COMPATIBLE AND PROPERLY SECURED CARPETED DRIVER'S SIDE FLOOR MAT SLIPPED OFF THE RETAINING HOOKS (CLIPS) AND BUNCHED UP UNDER THE PEDALS. THERE ARE ONLY TWO HOOKS, WHICH ARE REMOVABLE, AND THEY SPIN AROUND AND AROUND, ALLOWING THE MAT TO SLIP OFF. I BELIEVE THAT A SIMPLE FIX OF INSTALLING PERMANENT HOOKS THAT DO NOT SPIN, OR FOUR HOOKS, WOULD SOLVE THIS POTENTIALLY FATAL ISSUE. 2. AS I WAS DRIVING, I FOUND MYSELF UNABLE TO DEPRESS THE BRAKE PEDAL. I DISCOVERED THAT MY FLOOR MAT HAD LODGED UNDER THE BRAKE PEDAL, MAKING IT SO THAT COULD NOT PRESS IT DOWN. FORTUNATELY I WAS ABLE TO DISLODGE THE MAT AND AVOID A COLLISION. THIS INCIDENT ONLY HAPPENED ONCE, BUT THE MATS DO COME OFF THE HOOKS FREQUENTLY, THEREFORE I MUST CONSTANTLY MAKE SURE THAT MY MAT IS SECURE AND THAT THE HOOKS ARE FACING THE CORRECT WAY SO THE MAT CANNOT SLIP OFF THEM. 3. THE FAILURE WAS NOT REPORTED AND NO ACTION HAS BEEN TAKEN. *TR Make : TOYOTA Model : CAMRY HV Year : 2008 Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Crash : No Fire : No Number of Injuries: 0 ODI ID Number : 10304466 Number of Deaths: 0 Date of Failure: June 20, 2009 VIN : 4T1BB46K18U... Component: SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC Summary: TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2008 TOYOTA CAMRY HYBRID. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHEN SHE DEPRESSED THE BRAKE PEDAL, SHE FELT A JOLTING JERK AND THE PEDAL WENT DOWN TO THE FLOOR WHEN SHE APPLIED IT LIGHTLY. SHE TOOK THE VEHICLE TO THE DEALERSHIP AND THE DEALER RECALIBRATED THE STROKE SENSOR. ABOUT 8-9 MONTHS LATER, THE ISSUE OCCURRED AGAIN SO SHE TOOK THE VEHICLE BACK TO THE DEALERSHIP, AND THE STROKE SENSOR WAS REPLACED. SHE STATED THAT SHE NOTICED NO PROBLEMS SINCE THE LATEST REPAIR. SHE HAD NOT CALLED THE MANUFACTURER TO-DATE. THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 24,000. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 20,000. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
One thing I noticed on the TCH - the OBD port is right under the steering wheel, and uncapped. I wonder if there's a possibility of static discharge from drivers' clothing to the port connectors - which could 'spark' the computer into a tizzy. On our Honda, the OBD port is a bit more 'hidden', and so less likely to act as a ground.
On the Camry Flambe' - there was an incident here (Jax, FL) of a Honda CRV doing much the same. Cause turned out to be a dealer oil change tech who left the old gasket on the oil filter housing - with attendant oil spray on the hot exhaust. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Well, it goes from bad to worse for Toyota
Officer Saves Prius Driver With Stuck Accelerator AP A Prius driver calls 911 after accelerating to pass another vehicle on a California freeway and finding that he could not control his car. Foxnews.com The 2010 Toyota Prius has been recalled for brake problems, one of a number of challenges facing the Japanese automaker, which employs tens of thousands of Americans. EL CAJON, California -- A California Highway Patrol officer helped slow a runaway Toyota Prius from 94 mph to a safe stop on Monday after the car's accelerator became stuck on a San Diego County freeway, the CHP said. Prius driver James Sikes called the police emergency dispatcher about 1:30 p.m. after accelerating to pass another vehicle on Interstate 8 near La Posta and finding that he could not control his car, the CHP said. "I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny ... it jumped and it just stuck there," the 61-year-old driver said at a news conference. "As it was going, I was trying the brakes...it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up," Sikes said, adding he could smell the brakes burning he was pressing the pedal so hard. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by roswell
(Post 219953)
Hi guys
Toyota’s public image has taken a beating recently, after the automaker was forced to halt sales of eight popular models over concerns they could face a problem with sudden, unintended acceleration. Some engineers, however, warn that the problem may not stay confined to Toyota products. The Detroit Free Press explains, “In today's complex cars, a cell phone, satellite radio or even a restaurant's large microwave could -- in theory -- cause the accelerator to surge out of control, according to engineers familiar with electronic engine technology.” Toyota believes that its problem is mechanical, caused by two parts in the accelerator pedal mechanism that may begin to stick over time, with normal wear. Experts, however, say that the complex electronics found in modern cars could easily trigger the same problem. The Free Press explains, “Most automotive engines today are governed by sensor-driven throttle systems. Controlled by finely calibrated software, the systems can be thrown out of whack by signals from cell phones or microwave towers, engineering experts said. Toyota believes that electronic interference has not contributed to the incidents of unintended acceleration brought to its attention so far. Kicking Tires notes, “Toyota says its throttle-control system has fail-safes for such an occurrence and these parts would return a specific error when brought in for repair.” So far, the automaker says, it hasn’t seen that error in vehicles that, customers claim, have faced the unintended acceleration problem. Thanks for all And as Dr. Gilbert just proved, they're not likely to EVER see that error. Apparently the redundant brake pedal sensors can output non-coherent signals and the Toyota/etc "fail-safe" doesn't detect that. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
reported
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
reported spam
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
The Prius acceleration incident sounded very strange to me from the very beginning. Now this new info makes it even more so:
http://jalopnik.com/5491101/ I especially enjoy the claim " we do not intend to sue anybody" and the next sentence " we hired a lawyer". Is this man speaks with fork tongue, or did he hire criminal lawyer for protection from possible prosecution? |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Wow! That someone will likely try to take advantage of Toyota's vulnerability seems sure to happen. Whether this is an example of that is another matter. The allegations are here, but the evidence is missing.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Weeeeellllll, there are reports he was told by 911 dispatch to switch the car into neutral - he refused claiming the car may flip over ??????, he refused to switch the car off, he was afraid of locking the steering?????, he claims he tried to stop the car for 22 min, in the mean time after the cop told him to use the breaks, all of the sudden the car stops? I would speculate after hard riding the breaks for 22 min. he should have no breaks what so ever. Let me predict the future: Neither Toyota nor NHTSA finds anything wrong with the car, at some point he will be advised by his lawyers not to talk to anybody about the case, so he doesn't give himself out and face criminal chargers, case will be left unresolved and Toyota will settle out of court paying him and his lawyers money, just to not have anymore negative publicity.
There is something called circumstantial evidence and this whole story makes no sense, proof or no proof something is wrong there.
Originally Posted by lzc
(Post 220286)
Wow! That someone will likely try to take advantage of Toyota's vulnerability seems sure to happen. Whether this is an example of that is another matter. The allegations are here, but the evidence is missing.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by Pete4
(Post 220291)
Weeeeellllll, there are reports....
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
I agree with everything you say. The whole story is suspicious, to say the least.
Still, that's not the same a proof. The media's rush to find electronic ghosts in Toyotas absent credible evidence has been egregious. I hesitate to repeat the same error in concluding someone a liar. Some years ago, Coke (or Pepsi, I forget which) was the victim of a series of incidents in which people kept finding dangerous things in their cans of soda. The media was in full hysteria mode. In time, people ended up pleading guilty to faking the incidents. That we may have entered the same phase of the "runaway Toyota hysteria" is distressing but probably true. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
There is a link on web site I listed above to 911 tape, you can listen to (look for "911 tape" words with different font color. There are also transcripts, but I don't have links handy. BTW as far as I know that Prius should have break over ride. Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving.
Originally Posted by haroldo
(Post 220292)
I'd love to see a link to this report. Please post it, I'd like to share the story, but want to make sure it's legit.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by Pete4
(Post 220291)
Weeeeellllll, there are reports he was told by 911 dispatch to switch the car into neutral - he refused claiming the car may flip over ??????,
In the Prius it is too easy to slip past neutral and into reverse, linear movement and no "detent". If the car actually went into reverse with the HSD system in "WOT" runaway mode directional control would undoubtedly be totally lost. he refused to switch the car off, he was afraid of locking the steering?????, he claims he tried to stop the car for 22 min, in the mean time after the cop told him to use the breaks, E-brake....! Cannot be released by ABS even if the rear wheels come to a complete stop while the front wheels are still spinning furiously. And the E-brake, while weak, is not worn down to a "nubbin". all of the sudden the car stops? I would speculate after hard riding the breaks for 22 min. he should have no breaks what so ever. Let me predict the future: Neither Toyota nor NHTSA finds anything wrong with the car, at some point he will be advised by his lawyers not to talk to anybody about the case, so he doesn't give himself out and face criminal chargers, case will be left unresolved and Toyota will settle out of court paying him and his lawyers money, just to not have anymore negative publicity. There is something called circumstantial evidence and this whole story makes no sense, proof or no proof something is wrong there. Things are not always as they might seem at first glance, or second, third..etc. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by Pete4
(Post 220318)
There is a link on web site I listed above to 911 tape, you can listen to (look for "911 tape" words with different font color. There are also transcripts, but I don't have links handy. BTW as far as I know that Prius should have break over ride.
Prius BTO, Brake/Throttle Override... Toyota is giving out somewhat misleading information in this regard. All of Toyota's HSD systems have "BTO" in that they are programmed to have the drive system switch into regenerative braking mode when the brake light switch is actuated. So only by "default" do these vehicles have a BTO. Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving. With the Prius CVT/PSD there is NO mechanical disengagement of the drive system, the ICE and both MGs are ALWAYS connected to the drive wheels. With the HSD system in WOT runaway even I would have been reluctant to try switching to "neutral". In the end I'd probably try it but be fully prepared to quickly move it back to drive position if the results were adverse. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by wwest
(Post 220373)
.....
..............With the HSD system in WOT runaway even I would have been reluctant to try switching to "neutral". In the end I'd probably try it but be fully prepared to quickly move it back to drive position if the results were adverse. That experience showed me that shift to neutral shuts down the ICE; so on my second UA experience, I managed the situation much more easily by immediately shifting into neutral -a strategy I would recommend to all in the case of TCH or other Toyota HSD systems. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by Pete4
(Post 220318)
There is a link on web site I listed above to 911 tape, you can listen to (look for "911 tape" words with different font color. There are also transcripts, but I don't have links handy. BTW as far as I know that Prius should have break over ride. Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...w-balloon-boy/ http://www.opposingviews.com/i/runaw...ifornia-a-hoax |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
If the following is true, that NHTSA has found no evidence that the brakes were applied at full force, then this case is closed. Hoax.
http://s.wsj.net/img/wsj_print.gif Investigation Raises Questions on Prius Incident By KATE LINEBAUGH A federal safety investigation of the Toyota Prius that was involved in a dramatic incident on a California highway last week found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event, three people familiar with the investigation said. On Monday James Sikes, 61 years old, called 911 and told the operator his blue 2008 Toyota Prius had sped up to more than 90 miles per hour on its own on Interstate 8 near San Diego. He eventually brought the vehicle to a stop after a California Highway patrolman pulled alongside Mr. Sikes and offered help. During and after the incident, Mr. Sikes said he was using heavy pressure on his brake pedal at high speeds. But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said. The brakes were discolored and showed wear, but the pattern of friction suggested the driver had intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said, adding the investigation didn't find indicators of the heavy pressure described by Mr. Sikes. Further details of the findings weren't available. On Friday NHTSA officials declined to comment on the inspection and couldn't immediately be reached on Saturday. Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said the company will release technical findings very soon and declined to comment further about the vehicle's brakes. Mr. Michels said the hybrid braking system used in the Prius would make the engine lose power if the brakes were pressed at the same time as the accelerator. Mr. Sikes lawyer, John Gomez, said Saturday: "Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, it's clear that there is a problem with these cars. We're going to wait till the inspection is complete." He said that the California Highway patrolman involved in the incident said he saw the car's brake lights go on and that he smelled the brakes burning. The investigation's findings aren't 100% conclusive and still must be finalized. But they are likely to cast doubt on how the situation was described by Mr. Sikes. The California Highway Patrol has said it has no reason not to believe Mr. Sikes, but questions have mounted in recent days, in part because the Prius has a type of technology that pulls back on the accelerator when the brake is engaged. During the 911 call, the operator urged Mr. Sikes to shift the car into neutral. He later said he was afraid doing so might cause the car to "flip" or shift into reverse. Mr. Sikes's Prius is subject to a recall by Toyota to prevent the driver's floor mat from pinning down the gas pedal that was announced in November and covers 5.4 million vehicles in the U.S. Reports of unintended acceleration have prompted Toyota to recall more than six million vehicles in the U.S. and more than eight million world-wide. The recalls are aimed to fix the floor mat issue as well as gas pedals that can get stuck. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Cause of UA? Obviously... the driver. See today's latest news on 'scammer' Sikes.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by Old-Crows
(Post 220396)
Cause of UA? Obviously... the driver. See today's latest news on 'scammer' Sikes.
"Does anyone know of ANY reports of unintended acceleration (UA)- specifically on the Camry Hybrid - attributed to any cause other than the floor mats ?" There apparently has not been a single case of UA in a TCH attributed to the driver, either through driver error or fraud. Could it be that that TCH drivers are honest and competent? |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
From today's Washington Post on incidents of Toyota UA:
"We tried to re-create the circumstances surrounding some recent incidents. We took the highest-horsepower Toyota Camry to the test track to see whether the brakes could stop a runaway vehicle -- which they can. Next we looked at the Toyota Prius. We found that when the vehicle is accelerating, a simple tap of the transmission shifter into neutral disengages the throttle, and the vehicle coasts to a halt -- even if the brakes are not applied." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031501693.html |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Washington Post... "Masters of the Obvious!"
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
You missed the lawyer's novel assertion...
..."This problem is sort of a ghost in the machine that is the Toyota system," Gomez said Sunday. "It doesn't leave a fault code, it doesn't leave a footprint and you can't make it happen upon demand."... and Toyota's deft handling of the issue "We're not saying Mr. Sikes is wrong or that he lied..." --- "The chance of them both going wrong, plus the fact that the signal is bad, it just seems very, very, very remote," Hoff said. "Could it happen? Statistically, yes. But it just doesn't seem very likely." |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by Old-Crows
(Post 220477)
:omg: I don't give a crap what anyone says, anyone owning one of these cars took a giant hit on value and wait til the insurance premiums go out of site due to all the ledigation!:( |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
No expert here, but the cost of insurance is due to the loss experience for the model, so unless people are smacking these into telephone poles, the cost should be stable. As to resale value, if anyone thought of these as investments, well they're going to be disappointed. In 6 months the furor will die down and news will come out that the issue (if there is one) is an industry wide phenomenon as Ford, GM, etc. will similarly recall their cars. The 'stigma' of Toyota will wear off. Toyota's are selling very well, despite the news.
Best to sit back, put both hands on the wheel and enjoy the road, don't worry about the small stuff. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by haroldo
(Post 220485)
No expert here, but the cost of insurance is due to the loss experience for the model, so unless people are smacking these into telephone poles, the cost should be stable. As to resale value, if anyone thought of these as investments, well they're going to be disappointed. In 6 months the furor will die down and news will come out that the issue (if there is one) is an industry wide phenomenon as Ford, GM, etc. will similarly recall their cars. The 'stigma' of Toyota will wear off. Toyota's are selling very well, despite the news.
Best to sit back, put both hands on the wheel and enjoy the road, don't worry about the small stuff. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
The HSD control ECU's firmware is somehow "stuck" continuously executing the "set/accel" cruise control sub-routine and therefore ignoring all other inputs.
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Originally Posted by wwest
(Post 220517)
The HSD control ECU's firmware is somehow "stuck" continuously executing the "set/accel" cruise control sub-routine and therefore ignoring all other inputs.
I also stumbled across the Jalopnik article referenced a few posts back about "Cosmic Rays" and "Bit Flips". Willard, with your background, perhaps you could opine on that wild idea. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Many years ago now it was discovered that the geometry, "trace size", of solid state integrated dynamic memories had gotten so tiny that an alpha particle "stike" in just the right place would momentarily "upset" the memory contents. I believe it was then discovered that this was due to radiation capable molecules (radium, U235..?) being inadvertently embedded within the IC's plastic or ceramic case.
But I remain of the opinion, STRONG opinion, that the Sikes incident was the result of a coding flaw that resulted in the HSD control computer getting "stuck" executing ONLY the "set/accel" function. That might also explain the Saylor and Smith runaway engine incidents. In the Sikes instance it is clear from Toyota's own documentation that the skid control computer might not make full use of frictional braking even with the driver applying EXTREME pressure to the brake pedal. The Prius even has a spring loaded "stroke simulator" so that the brake pedal has the right "feel" even though the resulting brake fluid pressure is not reaching the brake calipers. |
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
I have a problem giving Sikes the benefit of the doubt here.
1) He is in a runaway situation for 20+ minutes with the brakes not responding, but when the CHP arrives he can now stop the vehicle. 2) This is on '07 Prius which I believe this person owned since new and he was unable/unwilling to put it in to Neutral. 3) Again after ~3 years of ownership, and a Toyota statement to just turn the car off if a UA happens, Sikes again is too afraid to do that because 'it might flip' 4) So with 2) & 3) he has these fears, but he will reach down and see if he can move a floor mat and is willing to take his chances driving 90+mph for over 20 min on a winding road while on the phone with a 911 operator. All that and techs from NHTSA and Toyota didn't find (so far) anything wrong with the car and they said that the condition of the brakes was not consistent with someone pressing on them for 20 minutes at high speed. |
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