Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
#21
03-12-2010, 10:48 AM
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
I agree with everything you say. The whole story is suspicious, to say the least.
Still, that's not the same a proof. The media's rush to find electronic ghosts in Toyotas absent credible evidence has been egregious. I hesitate to repeat the same error in concluding someone a liar.
Some years ago, Coke (or Pepsi, I forget which) was the victim of a series of incidents in which people kept finding dangerous things in their cans of soda. The media was in full hysteria mode. In time, people ended up pleading guilty to faking the incidents.
That we may have entered the same phase of the "runaway Toyota hysteria" is distressing but probably true.
Still, that's not the same a proof. The media's rush to find electronic ghosts in Toyotas absent credible evidence has been egregious. I hesitate to repeat the same error in concluding someone a liar.
Some years ago, Coke (or Pepsi, I forget which) was the victim of a series of incidents in which people kept finding dangerous things in their cans of soda. The media was in full hysteria mode. In time, people ended up pleading guilty to faking the incidents.
That we may have entered the same phase of the "runaway Toyota hysteria" is distressing but probably true.
#22
03-12-2010, 09:11 PM
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
There is a link on web site I listed above to 911 tape, you can listen to (look for "911 tape" words with different font color. There are also transcripts, but I don't have links handy. BTW as far as I know that Prius should have break over ride. Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving.
#23
03-13-2010, 01:27 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
Weeeeellllll, there are reports he was told by 911 dispatch to switch the car into neutral - he refused claiming the car may flip over ??????,
In the Prius it is too easy to slip past neutral and into reverse, linear movement and no "detent". If the car actually went into reverse with the HSD system in "WOT" runaway mode directional control would undoubtedly be totally lost.
he refused to switch the car off, he was afraid of locking the steering?????, he claims he tried to stop the car for 22 min, in the mean time after the cop told him to use the breaks,
E-brake....!
Cannot be released by ABS even if the rear wheels come to a complete stop while the front wheels are still spinning furiously.
And the E-brake, while weak, is not worn down to a "nubbin".
all of the sudden the car stops? I would speculate after hard riding the breaks for 22 min. he should have no breaks what so ever. Let me predict the future: Neither Toyota nor NHTSA finds anything wrong with the car, at some point he will be advised by his lawyers not to talk to anybody about the case, so he doesn't give himself out and face criminal chargers, case will be left unresolved and Toyota will settle out of court paying him and his lawyers money, just to not have anymore negative publicity.
There is something called circumstantial evidence and this whole story makes no sense, proof or no proof something is wrong there.
In the Prius it is too easy to slip past neutral and into reverse, linear movement and no "detent". If the car actually went into reverse with the HSD system in "WOT" runaway mode directional control would undoubtedly be totally lost.
he refused to switch the car off, he was afraid of locking the steering?????, he claims he tried to stop the car for 22 min, in the mean time after the cop told him to use the breaks,
E-brake....!
Cannot be released by ABS even if the rear wheels come to a complete stop while the front wheels are still spinning furiously.
And the E-brake, while weak, is not worn down to a "nubbin".
all of the sudden the car stops? I would speculate after hard riding the breaks for 22 min. he should have no breaks what so ever. Let me predict the future: Neither Toyota nor NHTSA finds anything wrong with the car, at some point he will be advised by his lawyers not to talk to anybody about the case, so he doesn't give himself out and face criminal chargers, case will be left unresolved and Toyota will settle out of court paying him and his lawyers money, just to not have anymore negative publicity.
There is something called circumstantial evidence and this whole story makes no sense, proof or no proof something is wrong there.
Things are not always as they might seem at first glance, or second, third..etc.
Last edited by wwest; 03-13-2010 at 01:33 PM.
#24
03-13-2010, 01:46 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
There is a link on web site I listed above to 911 tape, you can listen to (look for "911 tape" words with different font color. There are also transcripts, but I don't have links handy. BTW as far as I know that Prius should have break over ride.
Prius BTO, Brake/Throttle Override...
Toyota is giving out somewhat misleading information in this regard. All of Toyota's HSD systems have "BTO" in that they are programmed to have the drive system switch into regenerative braking mode when the brake light switch is actuated.
So only by "default" do these vehicles have a BTO.
Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving.
Prius BTO, Brake/Throttle Override...
Toyota is giving out somewhat misleading information in this regard. All of Toyota's HSD systems have "BTO" in that they are programmed to have the drive system switch into regenerative braking mode when the brake light switch is actuated.
So only by "default" do these vehicles have a BTO.
Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving.
With the Prius CVT/PSD there is NO mechanical disengagement of the drive system, the ICE and both MGs are ALWAYS connected to the drive wheels. With the HSD system in WOT runaway even I would have been reluctant to try switching to "neutral". In the end I'd probably try it but be fully prepared to quickly move it back to drive position if the results were adverse.
#25
03-13-2010, 01:57 PM
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 373
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
That experience showed me that shift to neutral shuts down the ICE; so on my second UA experience, I managed the situation much more easily by immediately shifting into neutral -a strategy I would recommend to all in the case of TCH or other Toyota HSD systems.
#26
03-13-2010, 03:27 PM
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
There is a link on web site I listed above to 911 tape, you can listen to (look for "911 tape" words with different font color. There are also transcripts, but I don't have links handy. BTW as far as I know that Prius should have break over ride. Also reader's comments after the article have some additional info. Anyhow, the guy is either retarded for driving 20 min without switching into neutral or shutting car off even after being told to do so, suicidal or criminal, take your pick. Either way he shouldn't be driving.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/is-th...w-balloon-boy/
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/runaw...ifornia-a-hoax
#27
03-13-2010, 08:45 PM
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
If the following is true, that NHTSA has found no evidence that the brakes were applied at full force, then this case is closed. Hoax.
Investigation Raises Questions on Prius Incident
By KATE LINEBAUGH
A federal safety investigation of the Toyota Prius that was involved in a dramatic incident on a California highway last week found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event, three people familiar with the investigation said.
On Monday James Sikes, 61 years old, called 911 and told the operator his blue 2008 Toyota Prius had sped up to more than 90 miles per hour on its own on Interstate 8 near San Diego. He eventually brought the vehicle to a stop after a California Highway patrolman pulled alongside Mr. Sikes and offered help.
During and after the incident, Mr. Sikes said he was using heavy pressure on his brake pedal at high speeds.
But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said.
The brakes were discolored and showed wear, but the pattern of friction suggested the driver had intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said, adding the investigation didn't find indicators of the heavy pressure described by Mr. Sikes.
Further details of the findings weren't available.
On Friday NHTSA officials declined to comment on the inspection and couldn't immediately be reached on Saturday.
Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said the company will release technical findings very soon and declined to comment further about the vehicle's brakes. Mr. Michels said the hybrid braking system used in the Prius would make the engine lose power if the brakes were pressed at the same time as the accelerator.
Mr. Sikes lawyer, John Gomez, said Saturday: "Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, it's clear that there is a problem with these cars. We're going to wait till the inspection is complete." He said that the California Highway patrolman involved in the incident said he saw the car's brake lights go on and that he smelled the brakes burning.
The investigation's findings aren't 100% conclusive and still must be finalized. But they are likely to cast doubt on how the situation was described by Mr. Sikes. The California Highway Patrol has said it has no reason not to believe Mr. Sikes, but questions have mounted in recent days, in part because the Prius has a type of technology that pulls back on the accelerator when the brake is engaged.
During the 911 call, the operator urged Mr. Sikes to shift the car into neutral. He later said he was afraid doing so might cause the car to "flip" or shift into reverse.
Mr. Sikes's Prius is subject to a recall by Toyota to prevent the driver's floor mat from pinning down the gas pedal that was announced in November and covers 5.4 million vehicles in the U.S.
Reports of unintended acceleration have prompted Toyota to recall more than six million vehicles in the U.S. and more than eight million world-wide. The recalls are aimed to fix the floor mat issue as well as gas pedals that can get stuck.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
Investigation Raises Questions on Prius Incident
By KATE LINEBAUGH
A federal safety investigation of the Toyota Prius that was involved in a dramatic incident on a California highway last week found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event, three people familiar with the investigation said.
On Monday James Sikes, 61 years old, called 911 and told the operator his blue 2008 Toyota Prius had sped up to more than 90 miles per hour on its own on Interstate 8 near San Diego. He eventually brought the vehicle to a stop after a California Highway patrolman pulled alongside Mr. Sikes and offered help.
During and after the incident, Mr. Sikes said he was using heavy pressure on his brake pedal at high speeds.
But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said.
The brakes were discolored and showed wear, but the pattern of friction suggested the driver had intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said, adding the investigation didn't find indicators of the heavy pressure described by Mr. Sikes.
Further details of the findings weren't available.
On Friday NHTSA officials declined to comment on the inspection and couldn't immediately be reached on Saturday.
Toyota spokesman Mike Michels said the company will release technical findings very soon and declined to comment further about the vehicle's brakes. Mr. Michels said the hybrid braking system used in the Prius would make the engine lose power if the brakes were pressed at the same time as the accelerator.
Mr. Sikes lawyer, John Gomez, said Saturday: "Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, it's clear that there is a problem with these cars. We're going to wait till the inspection is complete." He said that the California Highway patrolman involved in the incident said he saw the car's brake lights go on and that he smelled the brakes burning.
The investigation's findings aren't 100% conclusive and still must be finalized. But they are likely to cast doubt on how the situation was described by Mr. Sikes. The California Highway Patrol has said it has no reason not to believe Mr. Sikes, but questions have mounted in recent days, in part because the Prius has a type of technology that pulls back on the accelerator when the brake is engaged.
During the 911 call, the operator urged Mr. Sikes to shift the car into neutral. He later said he was afraid doing so might cause the car to "flip" or shift into reverse.
Mr. Sikes's Prius is subject to a recall by Toyota to prevent the driver's floor mat from pinning down the gas pedal that was announced in November and covers 5.4 million vehicles in the U.S.
Reports of unintended acceleration have prompted Toyota to recall more than six million vehicles in the U.S. and more than eight million world-wide. The recalls are aimed to fix the floor mat issue as well as gas pedals that can get stuck.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
#29
03-14-2010, 08:17 AM
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 373
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
"Does anyone know of ANY reports of unintended acceleration (UA)- specifically on the Camry Hybrid - attributed to any cause other than the floor mats ?"
There apparently has not been a single case of UA in a TCH attributed to the driver, either through driver error or fraud.
Could it be that that TCH drivers are honest and competent?
#30
03-16-2010, 07:21 AM
Re: Possible Causes of TCH Unintended Acceleration
From today's Washington Post on incidents of Toyota UA:
"We tried to re-create the circumstances surrounding some recent incidents. We took the highest-horsepower Toyota Camry to the test track to see whether the brakes could stop a runaway vehicle -- which they can. Next we looked at the Toyota Prius. We found that when the vehicle is accelerating, a simple tap of the transmission shifter into neutral disengages the throttle, and the vehicle coasts to a halt -- even if the brakes are not applied."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031501693.html
"We tried to re-create the circumstances surrounding some recent incidents. We took the highest-horsepower Toyota Camry to the test track to see whether the brakes could stop a runaway vehicle -- which they can. Next we looked at the Toyota Prius. We found that when the vehicle is accelerating, a simple tap of the transmission shifter into neutral disengages the throttle, and the vehicle coasts to a halt -- even if the brakes are not applied."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031501693.html
