Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
#21
05-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Unless you have a PHEV, an "EV Button" is not a desireable feature.
This would come in handy for me, at best, 4 times a year.
And I get better MPG than 99.9% of owners out there.
I have wanted this in the past, but then I thought things through.
Much like Ford did.
#1 It is just not needed.
#2 It won't raise your MPG more than pissing in the ocean raises sea level.
#3 It could very well be a disadvantage and here's why.
Presently, during the first 30 seconds of every key turn, the car performs an extensive self diagnostics check out of all systems. INCLUDING THE GAS POWERED SYSTEMS.
How would you like it if you used an EV button to get 1 or 2 miles down the road... and THEN discover your car couldn't start the gas engine? Wouldn't that be much more of an inconvienience than the car not starting in your garage or driveway? What if it was late at night? What if your wife was driving? Your teen age daughter?
The "not wanting dummies to think the car wasn't started" reason is 99% myth.
Maybe 100% myth. It's more of a "side effect" of the primary reason(s).
There are much more important reasons the car starts at every key turn.
And yes, Prius people using the said "EV button" are taking extra risk each time they use it to pull away from home. There is a risk down the road the Prius will not start. Your Ford / Mercury Hybrid already has an EV button to pull in late at night with only EV so you won't wake the kids. It's called your brake pedal. This will turn off the engine for the last mile or so under 40 miles per hour, in all but the rarest cases if you don't have the A/C or defogger on.
Nuff said.
This would come in handy for me, at best, 4 times a year.
And I get better MPG than 99.9% of owners out there.
I have wanted this in the past, but then I thought things through.
Much like Ford did.
#1 It is just not needed.
#2 It won't raise your MPG more than pissing in the ocean raises sea level.
#3 It could very well be a disadvantage and here's why.
Presently, during the first 30 seconds of every key turn, the car performs an extensive self diagnostics check out of all systems. INCLUDING THE GAS POWERED SYSTEMS.
How would you like it if you used an EV button to get 1 or 2 miles down the road... and THEN discover your car couldn't start the gas engine? Wouldn't that be much more of an inconvienience than the car not starting in your garage or driveway? What if it was late at night? What if your wife was driving? Your teen age daughter?
The "not wanting dummies to think the car wasn't started" reason is 99% myth.
Maybe 100% myth. It's more of a "side effect" of the primary reason(s).
There are much more important reasons the car starts at every key turn.
And yes, Prius people using the said "EV button" are taking extra risk each time they use it to pull away from home. There is a risk down the road the Prius will not start. Your Ford / Mercury Hybrid already has an EV button to pull in late at night with only EV so you won't wake the kids. It's called your brake pedal. This will turn off the engine for the last mile or so under 40 miles per hour, in all but the rarest cases if you don't have the A/C or defogger on.
Nuff said.
As I said in my other posts EV button AND PHEV makes the most sense and is what I prefer/ want. Running EV only on a fully charged batty pack is the best MPG's we can get in our FEH. Adding the ability to plug-in assures us of the most FE given the currant design limitations. The brake method you shared is WORTHLESS AT START UP!!!
John I want it, EV button with PFEH, what you want is of little concern to me, therefore, while everyone's opinion has some value here all opinions are of equal value and yours is most valuable to yourself as is mine to me.
As for how much better FE we would get is anyone's GUESS. How much does accelerating and then slipping the trans into neutral gain? At first glance not much but done well and often it yields big returns. How do the Ford engineers feel about doing this? Do they laugh or poo poo it? Who cares? It works and this type of thinking outside the box is not only fun but in this case helpful. Moral of the story don't knock it until you try it. In other words keep an open mind. This will go a long way to foster good communication, instead of always being mister know it all and mister negative. Lighten up and have some fun.
I see having the EV button and PFEH 2 of 3 parts to getting us to 60-100 mpg FE. The third is a bigger battery pack. 2 out of 3 ain't bad IMO. The first 2 are fully doable and IMO not for much work or money. In time part 3 will come and then the full potential will be realized. I would love to have it all now. However, I can take the steps that will lead there in the end. Doing nothing gets me nowhere.
#22
05-20-2008, 10:55 AM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Unless you have drives that take you less than a mile or two (not depleting the batteries) interspersed with just enough drives that will charge the battery. And that is your regular pattern. Its pretty questionable how much MPG an EV button is going to get you. Some... but not much.
If you are going further than the battery has to go then you are going to have to start the engine... when its warming up is when its least efficient. All you've done is to delay that warming up cycle a mile or so. It LOOKS bad to see that crappy mileage because you are paying attention at startup... but when you are going 35MPH with a cold engine after your battery is depleted, will the MPG really be better? By alot?
It might gain you a bit because you aren't 'idling' during that portion of your drive... but in the vast majority of cases, its probably not going to make alot of difference to most people and therefore is the small gain worth risk to Ford Motor company. Especially since they can't put it on the window sticker in the MPG rating because that test isn't designed to let one take a short drive at low speed... its under fixed conditions.
In short... if its not going to sell vehicles (because you can't effectively advertise it with an MPG window sticker) management isn't going to do it.
I worked for IBM in the earlier days of Pentium processors. The devices we were producing at IBM were significantly faster in running applications... but we had a lower clock rate. No-one cared.... the users were only concerned with that MHz number that they could understand. Not that we could actually run faster with a lower MHz.
If you can't make the average person understand.... they aren't going to pay for it.
If you are going further than the battery has to go then you are going to have to start the engine... when its warming up is when its least efficient. All you've done is to delay that warming up cycle a mile or so. It LOOKS bad to see that crappy mileage because you are paying attention at startup... but when you are going 35MPH with a cold engine after your battery is depleted, will the MPG really be better? By alot?
It might gain you a bit because you aren't 'idling' during that portion of your drive... but in the vast majority of cases, its probably not going to make alot of difference to most people and therefore is the small gain worth risk to Ford Motor company. Especially since they can't put it on the window sticker in the MPG rating because that test isn't designed to let one take a short drive at low speed... its under fixed conditions.
In short... if its not going to sell vehicles (because you can't effectively advertise it with an MPG window sticker) management isn't going to do it.
I worked for IBM in the earlier days of Pentium processors. The devices we were producing at IBM were significantly faster in running applications... but we had a lower clock rate. No-one cared.... the users were only concerned with that MHz number that they could understand. Not that we could actually run faster with a lower MHz.
If you can't make the average person understand.... they aren't going to pay for it.
In an ideal world we all would know everything and nothing would surprise us. Obviously most buyers of everything, buy with a large dose of ignorance. This is just the way it is.
If the test included a bit of side street speed and stop and go as well it would better simulate the real world and the gains in lower pollution and higher FE would show up in the test results. My issue is currently we have no choice at start up where the world dictates slow driving for short distances. EV only would be best. But ICE on always is what we have instead. IMO this is broken logic.
#23
05-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
I see having the EV button and PFEH 2 of 3 parts to getting us to 60-100 mpg FE. The third is a bigger battery pack. 2 out of 3 ain't bad IMO. The first 2 are fully doable and IMO not for much work or money. In time part 3 will come and then the full potential will be realized. I would love to have it all now. However, I can take the steps that will lead there in the end. Doing nothing gets me nowhere.
#24
05-20-2008, 04:23 PM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
IF IF IF ...... If your aunt had ****'s she would be your uncle. I never deal with "WHAT IF's" because you can what if all day long and talk yourself out of doing anything. What if you are driving and a Meteor hits you while you are getting fuel at the gas station. I think I will stay home today. OMG time to put the FUD (fear, uncertainty and deception) away, and step up to something real and tangible.
As I said in my other posts EV button AND PHEV makes the most sense and is what I prefer/ want. Running EV only on a fully charged batty pack is the best MPG's we can get in our FEH. Adding the ability to plug-in assures us of the most FE given the currant design limitations. The brake method you shared is WORTHLESS AT START UP!!!
John I want it, EV button with PFEH, what you want is of little concern to me, therefore, while everyone's opinion has some value here all opinions are of equal value and yours is most valuable to yourself as is mine to me.
As for how much better FE we would get is anyone's GUESS. How much does accelerating and then slipping the trans into neutral gain? At first glance not much but done well and often it yields big returns. How do the Ford engineers feel about doing this? Do they laugh or poo poo it? Who cares? It works and this type of thinking outside the box is not only fun but in this case helpful. Moral of the story don't knock it until you try it. In other words keep an open mind. This will go a long way to foster good communication, instead of always being mister know it all and mister negative. Lighten up and have some fun.
I see having the EV button and PFEH 2 of 3 parts to getting us to 60-100 mpg FE. The third is a bigger battery pack. 2 out of 3 ain't bad IMO. The first 2 are fully doable and IMO not for much work or money. In time part 3 will come and then the full potential will be realized. I would love to have it all now. However, I can take the steps that will lead there in the end. Doing nothing gets me nowhere.
As I said in my other posts EV button AND PHEV makes the most sense and is what I prefer/ want. Running EV only on a fully charged batty pack is the best MPG's we can get in our FEH. Adding the ability to plug-in assures us of the most FE given the currant design limitations. The brake method you shared is WORTHLESS AT START UP!!!
John I want it, EV button with PFEH, what you want is of little concern to me, therefore, while everyone's opinion has some value here all opinions are of equal value and yours is most valuable to yourself as is mine to me.
As for how much better FE we would get is anyone's GUESS. How much does accelerating and then slipping the trans into neutral gain? At first glance not much but done well and often it yields big returns. How do the Ford engineers feel about doing this? Do they laugh or poo poo it? Who cares? It works and this type of thinking outside the box is not only fun but in this case helpful. Moral of the story don't knock it until you try it. In other words keep an open mind. This will go a long way to foster good communication, instead of always being mister know it all and mister negative. Lighten up and have some fun.
I see having the EV button and PFEH 2 of 3 parts to getting us to 60-100 mpg FE. The third is a bigger battery pack. 2 out of 3 ain't bad IMO. The first 2 are fully doable and IMO not for much work or money. In time part 3 will come and then the full potential will be realized. I would love to have it all now. However, I can take the steps that will lead there in the end. Doing nothing gets me nowhere.
As far as a plug-in, I think the vast majority of people park their FEH's with an SoC near 53%. And since Ford determined that operating the SoC between 40-60% gave them the desired battery longevity, that would only allow on average a meager 7% or so room to charge. NiMH batteries shouldn't be charged at less than 0.1C, so charge time would be about 40 minutes. Those 0.1% of us who park with an SoC near 40% would benefit significantly, but almost no one else would.
I have worked out a quasi-EV button and a poor-man's charger, but am waiting for the warranty to expire to try them out in practice. Hopefully by then there will be also be an FFH (or perhaps a dual-mode Vue) in the driveway with those features already incorporated...
#25
05-21-2008, 10:04 AM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Mike I feel your pain but remember the mess with computers is supported by folks lining up with their wallets open and thus we all get what we are willing to pay for. If we determined in our hearts that this is lame and quit buying into the hype how soon would real and long term enhancements appear. In computers the next step is indeed small and real world improvements are when the numbers are about doubled. Buying sooner may make one feel better but not because there is a huge speed/performance improvement.
This thread is more of a wish list than a revelation as to what is available now. How long is anyone's guess and as such our conversation here is nothing more than semi-idle talk and hopeful future events.
Like computers cars today are largely effected by software. As long as the hardware will work then the software could be updated and we would be able to have improvements in FE IF Ford would care to support such an attitude and work not only to earn but keep folks in the Ford fold. A business model like this would be new in the auto world and would foster good will that would translate into sales. I'm surprised the automobile makers have not seen this possibility.
While yours and my purchases are spendy sadly time and technology marches on. For now to get the latest requires a whole new purchase. This is the current state of affairs.
There is, however, the possibility to upgrade some sound systems to the SYNC platform which is a new approach. While no price has been announced it is still a first step to upgrading existing product. Hats off to Ford for the option and I surmise that if it is received well, meaning profitable for Ford, other things like it will be just around the corner.
Carl
SOC is a big limiter in our EV range. Using Low and brake taps can help to drop SOC and maximise EV mode at the end of the trip. Having EV at start up and at end of trip and being able to plug in while not adding huge numbers to FE would none the less be a step in the right direction. While I have no REAL numbers to share it sure would be fun to see what they might be.
We here are a small minority. We actually work at trying to get more out of each gallon of gas. It is like a game of sorts. An EV button with Plug in would be a 2.0 upgrade to the game and offer an added dimension to the play.
I too am curious as to how much better the FE will be using the FEH drive train in the Focus. End of year we will know. Tick, Tick, Tick,
This thread is more of a wish list than a revelation as to what is available now. How long is anyone's guess and as such our conversation here is nothing more than semi-idle talk and hopeful future events.
Like computers cars today are largely effected by software. As long as the hardware will work then the software could be updated and we would be able to have improvements in FE IF Ford would care to support such an attitude and work not only to earn but keep folks in the Ford fold. A business model like this would be new in the auto world and would foster good will that would translate into sales. I'm surprised the automobile makers have not seen this possibility.
While yours and my purchases are spendy sadly time and technology marches on. For now to get the latest requires a whole new purchase. This is the current state of affairs.
There is, however, the possibility to upgrade some sound systems to the SYNC platform which is a new approach. While no price has been announced it is still a first step to upgrading existing product. Hats off to Ford for the option and I surmise that if it is received well, meaning profitable for Ford, other things like it will be just around the corner.
Carl
SOC is a big limiter in our EV range. Using Low and brake taps can help to drop SOC and maximise EV mode at the end of the trip. Having EV at start up and at end of trip and being able to plug in while not adding huge numbers to FE would none the less be a step in the right direction. While I have no REAL numbers to share it sure would be fun to see what they might be.
We here are a small minority. We actually work at trying to get more out of each gallon of gas. It is like a game of sorts. An EV button with Plug in would be a 2.0 upgrade to the game and offer an added dimension to the play.
I too am curious as to how much better the FE will be using the FEH drive train in the Focus. End of year we will know. Tick, Tick, Tick,
#26
05-21-2008, 10:41 AM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Following YOUR way of thinking,you should do this:
Take out your spare tire and jack and drive without it.
The laws of physics say this will increase your MPG more than an EV Button.
This will be true only if you drive your car more than 2 miles per day.
Do you drive your car more than 2 miles per day Allen?
This modification to your car won't cost you a cent, and you can have it today.
You already said you don't have to worry about "what if" you get a flat tire, so why carry it around? Leave that spare tire and jack at home and get 0.5 more MPG on all your trips... long or short. Take off your side mirrors and that will give you even more MPG!
Cheers!
#27
05-22-2008, 07:59 AM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Like Allen F, I also want an EV start feature, which would fit my driving profile with the benefit of reducing the number of times the ICE has to start. Other driving profiles may not benefit at all if you typically start your car, then drive for several miles before shutting off. An EV start mode, in that instance, would not be advantageous. But if it were a 'button' you could either use it or not.
I frequently move the car out of the garage to do whatever, then back in there 10 minutes later, or to wash it, or whatever. Every stinking time, the ICE has to come on, but with the EV button mode, I could do all this w/o starting the ICE. Now to me, that is significant. Same when I fuel up, then drive 200 feet to the stop sign with ICE running when the engine is already warm and a perfectly good SOC. But by design, the engine must start, so now I’m sitting at the stop sign for a short while with a warm engine running because of this initial design.
Often times I can get around this anomaly at the fuel pump or convenience store stop by simply putting it in park and leave the key on, and then I can just drive away in EV mode a few minutes later. But that forces me to leave the key in the ignition, which isn’t always advisable!
It may not be an enormous fuel saver, but I would feel better not starting the engine just to move the FEH a short distance. I wish Ford would have given us this EV start option, which for many of us, would eliminate the total number of times the engine has to start. Enviromentally that seems like a plus, not a minus
I frequently move the car out of the garage to do whatever, then back in there 10 minutes later, or to wash it, or whatever. Every stinking time, the ICE has to come on, but with the EV button mode, I could do all this w/o starting the ICE. Now to me, that is significant. Same when I fuel up, then drive 200 feet to the stop sign with ICE running when the engine is already warm and a perfectly good SOC. But by design, the engine must start, so now I’m sitting at the stop sign for a short while with a warm engine running because of this initial design.
Often times I can get around this anomaly at the fuel pump or convenience store stop by simply putting it in park and leave the key on, and then I can just drive away in EV mode a few minutes later. But that forces me to leave the key in the ignition, which isn’t always advisable!
It may not be an enormous fuel saver, but I would feel better not starting the engine just to move the FEH a short distance. I wish Ford would have given us this EV start option, which for many of us, would eliminate the total number of times the engine has to start. Enviromentally that seems like a plus, not a minus
#28
05-28-2008, 10:15 AM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
The warm-up procedure is a real MPG killer, as it requires generator torque to counter the ICE while the traction motor propels the vehicle. In EV, the generator draws no power while the traction motor is propelling the vehicle. So you have the double whammy of a retarded spark, rich-biased idling engine and a generator running and drawing HV current to counteract it, all while accelerating with the traction motor.
I'm confused on the above quote....
Wouldn't the way the generator provides torque to counter the ICE would be by acting as a generator and CHARGING the battery? So it would not drawing any HV current at all. If anything its putting some INTO the battery at those times. The engine is running rich, etc so it may not be the best time to be "recharging" your HV battery but its not a double hit by pulling current OUT.
Essentially the engine would be putting torque, some of it into the generator and it would be charging the battery or it would go directly to the traction motor to drive the wheels... if the traction motor needed more current it could pull from the battery... I can't think of why the generator and the traction motor would be pulling current from the HV battery unless they are BOTH driving the wheels... which as I understand it is sometimes done.
Until the engine starts all current and torque is coming from the battery... once that engine starts... things would be different. As LONG as the engine is idling and producing a certain amount of unused torque while idling and warming up.. it would make sense to charge the battery with that torque. After that the best thing to do is to decide where you can get your torque from most efficiently... straight from the warmed up ICE, or through the generator to the traction motor or a combination... the battery is used to BOOST when the ICE lags. During warmup I'm assuming they don't want to put extra torque on a cold motor so they drive the car mostly on battery power + extra torque and current from the generator which is being turned by the ICE. As she warms up... they would allow more torque to come from the engine and its RPM's to increase to deliver it either directly to the wheels or through the generator.
The experts might be able to correct me on some of that... but thats what I've picked up from reading this forum for a few years.
Last edited by TeeSter; 05-28-2008 at 10:31 AM.
#29
05-28-2008, 12:51 PM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Okay, let's calm down and keep away from the "Your way" and "Your thoughts" posts here, I don't want to lock this up and give any infractions please. Let's all stay civil. We can think the other person is wrong all they'd like, but be polite about pointing out any "wrongness". 
Personally, I don't really want an EV start switch nearly as much as I'd like a delay and heavy recharge switches. That way, when the battery is low, I can either put off recharging because I know up ahead I'm going to be getting a lot of recharge in, and a second switch doing the oppositte, this is the time you should put all the power you can back into the battery that you can. I'm not talking about taking over regen and discharge, but because I can see or I know the road up ahead, why not let me assist in optimizing those times with the behavior of the road?
Personally, I don't really want an EV start switch nearly as much as I'd like a delay and heavy recharge switches. That way, when the battery is low, I can either put off recharging because I know up ahead I'm going to be getting a lot of recharge in, and a second switch doing the oppositte, this is the time you should put all the power you can back into the battery that you can. I'm not talking about taking over regen and discharge, but because I can see or I know the road up ahead, why not let me assist in optimizing those times with the behavior of the road?
Last edited by Pravus Prime; 05-28-2008 at 12:55 PM.
#30
05-28-2008, 01:00 PM
Re: Anyone know release date of the plug in FEH?
Independent of if an HV button is great or just good....
I'm confused on the above quote....
Wouldn't the way the generator provides torque to counter the ICE would be by acting as a generator and CHARGING the battery? So it would not drawing any HV current at all. If anything its putting some INTO the battery at those times. The engine is running rich, etc so it may not be the best time to be "recharging" your HV battery but its not a double hit by pulling current OUT.
Essentially the engine would be putting torque, some of it into the generator and it would be charging the battery or it would go directly to the traction motor to drive the wheels... if the traction motor needed more current it could pull from the battery... I can't think of why the generator and the traction motor would be pulling current from the HV battery unless they are BOTH driving the wheels... which as I understand it is sometimes done.
Until the engine starts all current and torque is coming from the battery... once that engine starts... things would be different. As LONG as the engine is idling and producing a certain amount of unused torque while idling and warming up.. it would make sense to charge the battery with that torque. After that the best thing to do is to decide where you can get your torque from most efficiently... straight from the warmed up ICE, or through the generator to the traction motor or a combination... the battery is used to BOOST when the ICE lags. During warmup I'm assuming they don't want to put extra torque on a cold motor so they drive the car mostly on battery power + extra torque and current from the generator which is being turned by the ICE. As she warms up... they would allow more torque to come from the engine and its RPM's to increase to deliver it either directly to the wheels or through the generator.
The experts might be able to correct me on some of that... but thats what I've picked up from reading this forum for a few years.
I'm confused on the above quote....
Wouldn't the way the generator provides torque to counter the ICE would be by acting as a generator and CHARGING the battery? So it would not drawing any HV current at all. If anything its putting some INTO the battery at those times. The engine is running rich, etc so it may not be the best time to be "recharging" your HV battery but its not a double hit by pulling current OUT.
Essentially the engine would be putting torque, some of it into the generator and it would be charging the battery or it would go directly to the traction motor to drive the wheels... if the traction motor needed more current it could pull from the battery... I can't think of why the generator and the traction motor would be pulling current from the HV battery unless they are BOTH driving the wheels... which as I understand it is sometimes done.
Until the engine starts all current and torque is coming from the battery... once that engine starts... things would be different. As LONG as the engine is idling and producing a certain amount of unused torque while idling and warming up.. it would make sense to charge the battery with that torque. After that the best thing to do is to decide where you can get your torque from most efficiently... straight from the warmed up ICE, or through the generator to the traction motor or a combination... the battery is used to BOOST when the ICE lags. During warmup I'm assuming they don't want to put extra torque on a cold motor so they drive the car mostly on battery power + extra torque and current from the generator which is being turned by the ICE. As she warms up... they would allow more torque to come from the engine and its RPM's to increase to deliver it either directly to the wheels or through the generator.
The experts might be able to correct me on some of that... but thats what I've picked up from reading this forum for a few years.
The generator draws current during warm-up, no question. It does not charge the battery. SoC drops drastically during warm-up, much faster than during EV. Display the generator torque xgauge and see POSITIVE torque during warm-up, ZERO torque during EV, and NEGATIVE torque when charging. The ICE is idling during warm-up and you have to drive the generator to allow the ICE to continue to idle as the vehicle speed increases. All propulsion comes from the traction motor; the physics of the planetary gear set must be obeyed.
