Not sure if you are the one that added the bold face to my post or not

in reference to:

"The usable SoC range is so limited (by Ford) that the strategy you describe would be very difficult to employ for any length of time."
Um... I neglected to say that the electric current at that state is also coming from the ICE via the generator, not the battery.

"This makes no sense at all. The ICE will kick on for even moderate acceleration at very low speeds when the Atkinson ICE is extremely inefficient."
At moderate constant speeds you don't need much torque, because you are already rolling.... The atkinson works decently well at that point. You frankly haven't any choice.... the battery would have already given itself up.... it doesn't hold much capacity and frankly doesn't provide enough current to max out the traction motor either. The atkinson kicks on to provide extra current to the traction motor that the battery can't provide.

In a sense Ford designed the electrics not to be an electric car.... the are there to overcome inertia, and to provide extra power for acceleration when the Atkinson doesn't have it. I know I'm way oversimplifying.

For the standard driver with a standard partially leaded foot... they expect a certain amount of acceleration, and they have set it up for the ICE to come on and provide extra current to the traction motor for that feel. I'd have to agree with that. For someone to squeeze every last drop out of the mileage and be a hypermiler... yeah... some better choices could be made. But they were trying to market to everyone, not hypermilers.

All I meant to say, and apparently didnt' say well...

 

The best part of it is, MG1 and the ICE can provide current directly to MG2 (Positive Split Mode) without conversion losses you lose when going through the battery.

GaryG

 

Let me add that the FEH electric motor (MG1) is quite powerful (65Kw, I think)..that's equivalent to around 85hp - constant rating, not peak rating like you'd normally see ICE spec. The slow EV acceleration is not because of the weak EV motor, it's because the FEH controller doesnt allow max battery power, for a variety of reasons already mentioned previously.

Two very real experiments you can do to prove this (Many cool data I learned from people in this forum). One: go reverse. Reverse uses only the motor..putting as much power from the battery and ICE generator as the car allows...quite powerful.
Two: in the morning when you first start your car, the first minute (30 seconds?..not sure how long) the traction motor provides all of the car's motion, even if the ICE is on. You can accelerate rather briskly using only the electric motor. If you have the NAV screen, you can see this..or look at your tach when accelerating. The ICE is running only to warm up the system, and provide a bit more juice to the motor. Of course, if you accelerate real hard in that first 30 seconds, then the ICE kicks in to provide the needed acceleration. But you can kinda gauge how strong the motor is, and it's quite strong for "normal" acceleration and speed (up to 42mph...possibly faster?).

This brings me to a point I like to throw out: given that the motor is quite strong, it is conceivable that the FEH can be quite powerful in pure EV iff the electrical power (ie battery and electronics) is beefed up. I hope the alliance between SoCal Edison and Ford to research PHEV for the FEH can realize pure EV mode with better acceleration and speed than the current stock FEH will allow...and will allow PHEV mods with Ford consent.

 

[quote=occ;137363]

One: go reverse. Reverse uses only the motor..putting as much power from the battery and ICE generator as the car allows...quite powerful.


quote]

I need clarification from the long time posters.

I understand it as the traction motor only provides power for reverse. The ICE does not contribute power to reverse. I remember John (gps1man) stating something like the car can't overcome a 4 inch block stuck behind the rear wheels when it is in reverse. He even showed this to the Ford Engineers during the Hybrid Experience in Dearborne, Michigan in October 2005 if my memory serves me correctly.

 

You might be correct that the energy to the e-motor MG1 during reverse comes ONLY from the battery. The ICE does not provide power directly to reverse, but does it power electrical generation to power the MG1 during reverse?

My point is that the motor alone is quite strong IF given enough energy...something a beefed up battery could do.

 

The motor is very powerful.
Reverse is pure electric.
The battery can only put out about 15-20 kW. ( preset limit )
The generator is a 28kW generator ( preset limit ~ 25kW )
So 15kw from the battery + 25kW from the generator being spun by ICE means you can have up to 40kW to the wheels in reverse.
40kW is 53 horsepower in reverse. Prettty powerful.

If you block the wheels, apply current ( and torque ) and nothing moves, the computer records this event as a "motor stall" and will cut the juice to the motors.
Hence, you cannot roll over a 4" curb, if your wheels are standing still.
Also, you cannot pull out a tree stump, or pull a 2nd stuck car out of the snow. ( I tried to pull out a car in a snow bank, going forward and it didn't work, even with ICE on in forward, there's no way to "ease into the power" ) When the wheels didn't move, power was cut, no matter how hard I pushed on the gas pedal.

However, if you are already moving, even slowly, you can almost climb walls in EV. I have gone up a 15%-16% sloped driveway in EV, and I've climbed some very steep mountain "4x4 only" jeep trails in EV. Just getting past that dead stop, and motor stall message is sometimes difficult.

Also, Ford's advertising of a "90 HP" electric motor is both true, and false at the same time. You do have a 90 HP (68kW ) motor built into the car.
But the car is never allowed to send more than ~40kW ( 53 HP worth ) of power into it, so in effect, you really have only a 53 HP electric assist.
But you can see, it does quite well with this under "normal" conditions.
-John

 

Thanks for the info John. This is what I suspect. The MG1 is much more powerful than the car allows, and even with this limit, it can perform quite well in EV (pure EV during that 1st 30 seconds). It can perform so much more if allowed to with better batteries and controls.

 

MG1 and MG2 can get confusing.
There should be a standard terminology between car makes, but is there?

That's why I like to use the literal terms:
Generator Motor and
Traction Motor to keep things clear.
That way it means the same if you are talking Honda, or Toyo, or Ford.
-John