I am the original postee to this thread and I have pulled out both tire receipts. When statiing that the problem was due to the tread pattern was information passed on to me by Honda's regional service manager. I am not a tire expert and all I know is it took two months to diagnose the problem. Had I known that it was the tire I would have changed it immediately.

michelin p195/65r15 89s bw Replacement tire


Dunlop 195/65r15 original tire

part #42751-dun-039

 

can you be more specific... which dunlop... and which michelin.

By any chance?

Bridgestone Insignia SE200-02
Dunlop SP31 A/S

Click on the links to see the specs for each tire. You will notice a diameter difference along with revs/mile difference.

Along with one being a stickier tire than the other. Lot's of difference for a same size tire. Again, tread patter is one of many factors here and unless I see the data, I won't buy it. I am guessing the service manager is just saying it's a "tire" issue and mentioned tread pattern as a possiblity.

Size
Service Description
Load Rating UTQG Max
Load Max.
Inflation
Press. Tread
Depth Tire
Weight Rim
Width
Range Meas.
Rim
Width Sect.
Width Tread
Width Overall
Diam. Revs
Per
Mile 195/65 SR15
89S SL 320 A B
1279 lbs.
44 psi
10/32"
18 lbs. 5.5-7"
6"
7.9"
5.6"
25.2"
830




Size
Service Description
Load Rating UTQG Max
Load Max.
Inflation
Press. Tread
Depth Tire
Weight Rim
Width
Range Meas.
Rim
Width Sect.
Width Tread
Width Overall
Diam. Revs
Per
Mile 195/65 SR15
89S SL 380 B B
1279 lbs.
44 psi
9/32"
18 lbs. 5.5-7"
6"
7.8"
5.7"
25"
833

 

..

 

livvie,
the poster said Michelin, not Bridgestone.

Here is the most likely Michelin tire (based on tirerack's selection), as it is the ONLY Michelin with 89S (load rating): Michelin Harmony. Specs below:
Size
Service Description
Load RatingUTQGMax
LoadMax.
Inflation
Press.Tread
DepthTire
WeightRim
Width
RangeMeas.
Rim
WidthSect.
WidthTread
WidthOverall
Diam.Revs
Per
Mile195/65 SR15
89S SL 740 A B
1279 lbs.
44 psi
11/32"
21 lbs.5.5-7"
6"
7.8"
NA
24.8"
838

Chances are very good that the original tire IS the Dunlop SP31 A/S. Specs (repeated) below:
Size
Service Description
Load RatingUTQGMax
LoadMax.
Inflation
Press.Tread
DepthTire
WeightRim
Width
RangeMeas.
Rim
WidthSect.
WidthTread
WidthOverall
Diam.Revs
Per
Mile195/65 SR15
89S SL 320 A B
1279 lbs.
44 psi
10/32"
18 lbs.5.5-7"
6"
7.9"
5.6"
25.2"
830


As you can see, the Michelin is a little heavier (3lbs), 0.1" narrower, and 0.4" less in diameter. This results in about 8 more revolutions per mile for that rim. While this is not a whole lot, it IS more different in diameter and revolutions per mile than several other tire choices that could be made for this type tire.

It is discouraging to think that this little bit of difference caused your issues.
At any rate, glad to hear you are back to normal now. And thanks for continuing to share your experience (and details like this) with us.

I KNOW it's always best to replace all 4 tires together (with all the same), or at least a left-right matched pair together. But I have migrated away from a brand one tire at a time before, without these issues. Some newer cars are more sensitive. My 1996 Jaguar was more sensitive than any other car I've ever owned with regard to tire-tracking.

You have just made us (me, for one) be more diligent in selecting replacement tires for our hybrids, when that time comes. Thanks.

 

Thanks for posting this very odd finding.I would blame Honda for this problem.Yes, you aren't supposed to mix tires, but that is for safety reasons. It is a pretty big surprise that such a tiny difference in circumference(1% based on 830 vs 838 turns per mile) would throw it off so much.
Yes, I see the 25.2" vs 24.8" is (1.6%).I can't explain why those numbers aren't consistent.There should be .25" difference in circumference, not .4".
The original poster never said he thought that the tread pattern was the problem. He was clear from the start that the Honda Rep was the one who said the tread pattern was the problem.
Still, why in the heck would the computer be so confused by such a minor difference, and why would the confusion cause it to not "shift"? Is there a line in the code that says, " if one wheel is constantly turning 1% faster than the other 3, then keep the RPMS up"??? Especially when the "flyer" is a rear tire!!
The owner didn't seem to be "cheaping out" to me. Michelins are usually the most expensive tires.Dunlops are generally much cheaper than Michelins.
Honda is at fault here.Their gadgetry is waaaaay too sensitive. They will correct it in the future.
Thanks.Charlie

 

Thanks for the words. Took a lot of heat for this post. I was trying to get others from not making the same mistake. It took Honda almot two months to discover the problem and without the Lemon Law Claim I believe that I would be driving the car in the same condition. I am sure that Honda has sent a memorandem to all of its service departments addressing this finding.

Here are some thoughts:

1. What happens if we ruin one tire? Will we be required to replace all the tires with matching tires or will replacing two be sufficient?

2. Will we see this problem accur for the short time that the doughnut spare is on the car.

The high revolution problem would sustain itself for many miles without breaking. In one particular case it sustained near 4000 rpm's for 12.8 miles at 60 mph. The only time it broke this barrier was when the car went under 55mph. I really thought my car was falling apart and I did not connect it to the tire.

It would be terrible if the consumers would have to replace all the tires due to a sidewall flat or perhaps a blowout on one tire. That would be an expensive fix.

It would be terrible if the consumer has to buy only Dunlop tires or tires with the exact specifications as the dunlop. I learned through this post that tires with the same number have different circumferences. Upon buying replacement tires for this car in the future will stressful purchase.

I would like to hear from someone that has replaced all the tires and see if they have had problems with another brand.

I hope Honda is researching this scenario...

 

I'm curious about this tire issue. Does anyone have an "in" with a Honda service manager or certified HCH II mechanic? Does the car actually have sensors on all 4 wheels that change the CVT's performance through the computer? I would have thought just the two drive wheels (front) would create an imbalance in the CVT or car's performance. Thanks for any feedback.

 

I don't have insight in Honda engineering, but do know a few things about control strategies for other brands. I suspect the VSA system rather than the CVT, or perhaps together with the engine and transmission control.

So, can 1% difference in circumference make a difference? Is it possible that a car has sensors on all four wheels? Definetily. All cars have these sensors- for the ABS, and the VSA uses the same input. Cheaper traction control systems compare speed between rear and front tires. If front tires are spinning faster than rear, power will be reduced. The HCHII system is said to be more advanced. If it is what Honda says it should be, it should also have a small gyroscope, and a steering wheel angle sensor. It compares all this input to help reduce engine power, and brake one or two wheels, to stabilise the car if it looses traction and the front is not pointing in the direction it should be. 1% seems like a very small difference, but it is the level at which these system begin to work. They start acting long before most drivers even notice it.

I also remember a similar problem on a four-wheel drive car, with rear axle driven via a viscous clutch (some silicon fluid). The principle of operation was, that when front tires were spinning faster than rear, the clutch would engage, and distribute power to the rear axle. Problem was, that if you used the spare, or different size, or even different brand on front and rear, the clutch would always engage, then overheat, and need a EUR 2000 repair. (Many of these cars are actually driving around with a defect four-wheel drive, without owners ever noticing. Apparently they didn't buy four-wheel drive because they needed it.)

The only conclusion I can make after all these posts is that the VSA is reacting, and orders the engine control to reduce power or perhaps select another gear pattern to gain traction. The end result is perhaps not what you could expect, but this is the only possible cause. It could be a secondary reaction, that when power is reduced, the driver will push the pedal further, then a lower gear is selected.

It would be easy to confirm this, by shutting off the VSA with the button. If VSA is active even when shut off with button (not unusual, depends on manufacturer), you might have to take out the fuse. Too late now I guess, but maybe if someone else runs into this problem they could try it.

We couldn't be thankful enough for gwilleford's heads up on this.