Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
#11
02-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
>>Those congressmen (and women) are brutal.
>>It's disrespectful (IMHO) to talk to anyone the way they do.
Yes. It reveals more about their character than Toyota's. What's next? We feed business execs to the lions.
Cars today are so much safer, more reliable, less likely to leave one stranded from breakdown, etc., etc. Yep, they aren't perfect. Only members of Congress have reached that lofty plateau. I hope Toyota execs defended the company against the demagoguery that was thrown at them. I didn't watch it.
>>It's disrespectful (IMHO) to talk to anyone the way they do.
Yes. It reveals more about their character than Toyota's. What's next? We feed business execs to the lions.
Cars today are so much safer, more reliable, less likely to leave one stranded from breakdown, etc., etc. Yep, they aren't perfect. Only members of Congress have reached that lofty plateau. I hope Toyota execs defended the company against the demagoguery that was thrown at them. I didn't watch it.
#12
02-23-2010, 04:19 PM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,051
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
I hope people see these hyenas, jackals and jackasses at their worst and vote them into retirement this November!
#13
02-23-2010, 05:48 PM
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
You neglected to mention: swine (both pigs and hogs), dogs, monkeys, vermin, varmints, vultures, weasels, snakes, sneaks, snobs, slackers, sleazeballs, crooks, creeps, egomaniacs, extortionists, exhibitionists, hedonists, hypocrites, idiots, ignoramuses, imbaciles, leeches, liars, loafers, low-lifers, and (for the most part) bums who've never done an honest day's work in their lives.
Last edited by Smilin' Jack; 02-23-2010 at 06:31 PM. Reason: completeness
#14
02-24-2010, 09:11 AM
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Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
Is anyone else concerned that they seem to be totally ignoring the possibility of human error in at least some percentage of these cases? Every time the question came up, the congressperson questioning Mr Lentz seemed to infer that ALL cases of (sudden) unintended acceleration were 100% a fault in the toyota vehicle.
There have been several cases noted where the driver claims they shifted to neutral and the car continued to accelerate. Even in drive by wire systems today, the shift lever is a totally isolated part of the system from the accelerator, so they are suggesting that TWO systems are failing at exactly the same time ??
There have been several cases noted where the driver claims they shifted to neutral and the car continued to accelerate. Even in drive by wire systems today, the shift lever is a totally isolated part of the system from the accelerator, so they are suggesting that TWO systems are failing at exactly the same time ??
On the other hand it might be close to impossible to disengage the transaxle's drum type clutches with so much TORQUE (WOT & FULL braking) applied to the gear teeth.
#15
02-24-2010, 10:07 AM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,051
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
I'm a big believer in the fact that statistics can, at best, be very misleading and, at worst, be manipulated to support a private agenda.
For the record, Toyota's are #1 in UA incidents...but there are others on the list (including Ford which sits at #2).
Here's my read (with no scientific proof nor stats to back it up)...
I'm not a statistician and all I have is a few newspaper articles and a healthy distrust for anyone throwing around statistics to prove a point ("hockey stick warming trends", etc.) but if my supposition is that UA can (and does) have many causes and affects more than one brand, can any or all of the above mentioned issues unfairly pose Toyota as the devil, when in fact they're suffering from a healthy degree of coincidences (with a small measure of vindictive political scapegoating thrown in for good measure)?
Who knows?
Of note...
For the record, Toyota's are #1 in UA incidents...but there are others on the list (including Ford which sits at #2).
Here's my read (with no scientific proof nor stats to back it up)...
- I know this is a massive generalization (and I could be wrong), but Toyota's are more popular on the coasts whereas Fords (for example) are more popular in the fly over states. Two different demographics. Is it possible that the type of person in Mass., DC, NY, LA, etc. might be more inclined to complain to NHTSA than someone in Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa or Ohio? There's a lot of lawyers in "Toyota country" and these might be the type of people who would be more likely to report problems. How many people (six months ago) would have known what NHTSA is and that they should report issues to the agency? I'll bet <1% of all drivers. Is it possible, who knows?
- I believe Toyota sales mix is skewed towards sedans whereas Ford's mix relies more on pickup trucks. Is it possible that this malady is occuring more frequently (or mainly) in sedans, thus Toyota's product mix puts them in the cross-hairs?
- Is it possible that the early publicity from Toyota brought out more complaints? IIRC, they publicized their UA mat recall in 2007 and might drivers of similar models said "hey, that happened to me, too!" and then reported their incident, whereas drivers of Brand X who had UA thought that maybe it was their fault or just sluffed it off and moved on? I believe the publicity of an incident pulls other incidences out of the woodwork.
- Here's one more "what if". Let's assume that the there are three separate causes of UA, that being mats, sticky pedals and electronic error. Now there's no way of knowing this, but is it possible that all manufacturers have an electronic error rate of .01%, a sticky pedal problem rate of 0.1% and finally, the mat issue, where Toyota suffers from a significantly higher rate of problems? Now, the current witch hunt mentality is lumping all three maladies together when in fact if they were able to be separated into the various components, the only problem that Toyota has would be the much publicized and already begun/completed mat recall?
- I did a quick search at NHTSA's site. For my car year (2008) there was one person who filed three separate complaints. Is that one 'incident' or three? If multiple complaints are received for the same car, might that not further skew the stats (assuming that one car got more 'multiple' complaints than the other?)
I'm not a statistician and all I have is a few newspaper articles and a healthy distrust for anyone throwing around statistics to prove a point ("hockey stick warming trends", etc.) but if my supposition is that UA can (and does) have many causes and affects more than one brand, can any or all of the above mentioned issues unfairly pose Toyota as the devil, when in fact they're suffering from a healthy degree of coincidences (with a small measure of vindictive political scapegoating thrown in for good measure)?
Who knows?
Of note...
Toyota Motor Corporation...had 1,133 consumer complaints of unintended acceleration filed with NHTSA through Feb. 3. The complaints cover model years 2005 to 2010.
Toyota's number of complaints for unintended acceleration exceeds similar complaints for the other Big Six manufacturers combined.
Rounding out the Big Six are, in order of most complaints to fewest are, Ford Motor Company...with 387 complaints; Chrysler LLC...171 complaints; General Motors... with 152 complaints; Honda...with 113 complaints; and Nissan...with 62 complaints.
Toyota's number of complaints for unintended acceleration exceeds similar complaints for the other Big Six manufacturers combined.
Rounding out the Big Six are, in order of most complaints to fewest are, Ford Motor Company...with 387 complaints; Chrysler LLC...171 complaints; General Motors... with 152 complaints; Honda...with 113 complaints; and Nissan...with 62 complaints.
Last edited by haroldo; 02-24-2010 at 11:31 AM.
#16
02-24-2010, 12:48 PM
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
It is unfortunate that the financial company and bank executives who led the charge into oblivion for the economy did not follow this traditional Japanese method.
#17
02-24-2010, 12:52 PM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,051
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
...as well as the thousands upon thousands who borrowed money and didn't pay it back.
The financial mess started with homeowners who thought their house was an ATM or they were in Vegas hoping to flip it for a quick killing.
The financial mess started with homeowners who thought their house was an ATM or they were in Vegas hoping to flip it for a quick killing.
#18
02-25-2010, 06:23 AM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,051
Re: Toyota's public crucification is on CNBC right now
Cause of Sudden Acceleration Proves Hard to Pinpoint
By KATE LINEBAUGH And DIONNE SEARCEY
Congress this week has begun wading into an issue that has vexed the auto industry for decades: Is sudden acceleration caused by driver mistakes, or by problems with cars?
The consensus among industry executives and federal safety regulators, embodied in a 1989 report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, is that most cases of sudden acceleration result from drivers hitting the gas pedal when they meant to hit the brakes.
But this week, witnesses at a hearing of the House Energy and Commerce Committee have said that 21-year-old report is outdated in an age when many vehicles are controlled by electronic throttle and braking systems that didn't exist in substantial numbers back then.
...
Driver error is the auto industry's bugaboo. Even when dealers and auto makers suspect driver error, it is difficult for them to outright blame their customers for fear of alienating them or appearing insensitive, as sometimes serious injuries or fatalities are involved. In Toyota's case, some of the most high-profile incidents of sudden acceleration involve drivers who are elderly or with health issues that may never be definitively ruled out as contributing factors.
Mr. Lentz acknowledged after a hearing Tuesday that both auto parts and human error could be to blame. "I think in the case of sudden acceleration there are mechanical issues, there are human interface issues. There is pedal misapplication. It exists."
Toyota is getting a lot of attention for sudden unintended acceleration, but Ford Motor Co. has been the subject of more complaints with federal regulators in the recent past. From 2004 to 2009, based on NHTSA data, Ford had 2,806 complaints, compared with Toyota's 2,515. General Motors Co. had 1,192. A study by Edmunds.com, an independent market-research Web site, found that based on the number of vehicles on the road, Toyota ranked 17th in recalls...
By KATE LINEBAUGH And DIONNE SEARCEY
Congress this week has begun wading into an issue that has vexed the auto industry for decades: Is sudden acceleration caused by driver mistakes, or by problems with cars?
The consensus among industry executives and federal safety regulators, embodied in a 1989 report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, is that most cases of sudden acceleration result from drivers hitting the gas pedal when they meant to hit the brakes.
But this week, witnesses at a hearing of the House Energy and Commerce Committee have said that 21-year-old report is outdated in an age when many vehicles are controlled by electronic throttle and braking systems that didn't exist in substantial numbers back then.
...
Driver error is the auto industry's bugaboo. Even when dealers and auto makers suspect driver error, it is difficult for them to outright blame their customers for fear of alienating them or appearing insensitive, as sometimes serious injuries or fatalities are involved. In Toyota's case, some of the most high-profile incidents of sudden acceleration involve drivers who are elderly or with health issues that may never be definitively ruled out as contributing factors.
Mr. Lentz acknowledged after a hearing Tuesday that both auto parts and human error could be to blame. "I think in the case of sudden acceleration there are mechanical issues, there are human interface issues. There is pedal misapplication. It exists."
Toyota is getting a lot of attention for sudden unintended acceleration, but Ford Motor Co. has been the subject of more complaints with federal regulators in the recent past. From 2004 to 2009, based on NHTSA data, Ford had 2,806 complaints, compared with Toyota's 2,515. General Motors Co. had 1,192. A study by Edmunds.com, an independent market-research Web site, found that based on the number of vehicles on the road, Toyota ranked 17th in recalls...
Where was Ford at this week's hearings?
Last edited by haroldo; 02-25-2010 at 06:25 AM.
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