2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
#1
11-16-2016, 09:27 AM
2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
Old news from a few days ago
Update to now: I've connected my two LED drivers to the battery poles and started charging the battery grid style. I did so by hooking up to the two poles out of the battery and leaving the ignition on. This in theory powers up everything and the fan should run as it needs. Thankfully it has been pretty chilly here as well (sub 40s) so I wasn't too worried about grid charging. (Only did about 5-6 hours of charging with breaks every 1.5 to 2 hours to let the batteries sit and then reset the IMA and idle charge (disconnect 12v for 5 seconds and start engine, high idle would charge battery at 3 bars of charge meter for approx 1 min until battery gauge filled, did this three times every brake per another thread I found.)
Battery got up to 183.6v and I simply ran out of time. In my opinion this should be plenty of power to kick the 12v charging circuit on. Welp, never worked.
My civic, no matter what, will not charge the 12v battery. I have read that you can disable the IMA system and it will still charge north of 1500 RPM. Nope. Negative. Never worked for me. Though I never killed the IMA system while trying (flip the breaker)
The 12v battery tests good. Interstate 151r. Unsure of age, its not marked, but fully charged with my Noco Genius charger, it load tests with my old Schumacher charger between 300-400 CCA (its an old analog gauge with a large wire resistor)
Battery Cables are clean tight shiny bright.
When I first bought the car it had an IMA light, but the battery got disconnected to charge it, before I got to scan it. I've driven the car with a fully charged 12v battery for a far bit around my neighborhood (1-1.5 miles for about 10 mins.) and never got an IMA light. IMA would charge at 3 bars normally, and towards the end, it would occasionally charge at 4-6 bars upon braking. Assist was working and battery meter filled itself up. Giving the car a fair bit of gas would make the assist meter show almost full bars.
Charing with the key on during the first round of charging gave me the P07AF code, pack deterioration. Kind of expected that code.
What am I missing or what should I look for next? I've read probably a hundred forum posts and articles on the IMA batteries, 1st gen and 2nd, and haven't been able to solve this.
Alright, so I have been lurking down the rabbit hole for quite some time. Looking specifically at Honda's IMA battery setup's and how people have fixed them. Seems pretty self-explanatory.
IMA battery becomes unbalanced, discharge and recharging cells takes their memory away and makes them more powerful again. Pretty easy right?
Well, I've been trying to come up with the easiest method of grid charging my set of batteries on my new to me 07 civic hybrid that will not charge the 12v battery and had a Christmas tree of CEL and IMA lights.
I purchased two 45-90v LED drivers, wired them in a series, pulled the battery panel out and there it was in all it's glory an IMA battery..... I read through a few guides and saw the recommendation that you flip the breaker off, wait approx 5 mins for it to discharge and come back to see a less than 30v reading on a meter for the IMA + and - and you should be safe to go. Alas, I got a 0v reading and was a little confused. I could see a 0v reading when it's been sitting for some time but I waited, honestly, less than 5 minutes.
Being a curious cat, and knowing curiosity can kill said cat, I flipped the battery breaker back on to see if I would be voltage at these two points on the orange cables + - out of the batteries. Alas, 0v. Now I am confused.
Is there a relay that kicks the battery outputs on and off with the 12v battery or the ignition that is protecting me from seeing voltage here? I would like to hook up my two LED drivers to the + and - outs of the battery but if I don't see any voltage, I feel I won't be charging anything.
Nevermind, found that if you turn the key on, you get voltage at these poles. Master switch.
My other question is that when I pulled the plug to the PWM blower fan I noticed there are four pins. RED BLACK PURPLE? BLUE. Least I think it was purple. Red and black were much heavier wires leading me to believe that they are power wires for the fan. 12v + - from my trusty power source led to disappointment. Re-thinking my strategy I am assuming that there needs to be something hooked up to the other two wires, a resistor maybe?
Some more digging led me to people mentioning I need a PWM to control the blower fan.
More digging my homebrew hack self, I found people were powering up the BCM? to have the Honda computer to manage the fan's and such. Great, that's even easier.
So can this simply be accomplished by leaving the key on? I've read on prius forums that people have been known to use their prius as a backup generator, by wiring in a large inverter to the car and leaving the key on. The large hybrid battery powers the 12v inverter until the battery is low enough to kick the engine on, charging the large battery quickly, and shutting the engine back off. This means a very low fuel consumption generator and a very quiet generator as well.
Tl;dr Can I grid charge the IMA battery from the + and - orange wires at the IMA battery while leaving the key on in the hybrid to allow the IMA computer to handle the fan control?
IMA battery becomes unbalanced, discharge and recharging cells takes their memory away and makes them more powerful again. Pretty easy right?
Well, I've been trying to come up with the easiest method of grid charging my set of batteries on my new to me 07 civic hybrid that will not charge the 12v battery and had a Christmas tree of CEL and IMA lights.
I purchased two 45-90v LED drivers, wired them in a series, pulled the battery panel out and there it was in all it's glory an IMA battery..... I read through a few guides and saw the recommendation that you flip the breaker off, wait approx 5 mins for it to discharge and come back to see a less than 30v reading on a meter for the IMA + and - and you should be safe to go. Alas, I got a 0v reading and was a little confused. I could see a 0v reading when it's been sitting for some time but I waited, honestly, less than 5 minutes.
Being a curious cat, and knowing curiosity can kill said cat, I flipped the battery breaker back on to see if I would be voltage at these two points on the orange cables + - out of the batteries. Alas, 0v. Now I am confused.
Is there a relay that kicks the battery outputs on and off with the 12v battery or the ignition that is protecting me from seeing voltage here? I would like to hook up my two LED drivers to the + and - outs of the battery but if I don't see any voltage, I feel I won't be charging anything.
Nevermind, found that if you turn the key on, you get voltage at these poles. Master switch.
My other question is that when I pulled the plug to the PWM blower fan I noticed there are four pins. RED BLACK PURPLE? BLUE. Least I think it was purple. Red and black were much heavier wires leading me to believe that they are power wires for the fan. 12v + - from my trusty power source led to disappointment. Re-thinking my strategy I am assuming that there needs to be something hooked up to the other two wires, a resistor maybe?
Some more digging led me to people mentioning I need a PWM to control the blower fan.
More digging my homebrew hack self, I found people were powering up the BCM? to have the Honda computer to manage the fan's and such. Great, that's even easier.
So can this simply be accomplished by leaving the key on? I've read on prius forums that people have been known to use their prius as a backup generator, by wiring in a large inverter to the car and leaving the key on. The large hybrid battery powers the 12v inverter until the battery is low enough to kick the engine on, charging the large battery quickly, and shutting the engine back off. This means a very low fuel consumption generator and a very quiet generator as well.
Tl;dr Can I grid charge the IMA battery from the + and - orange wires at the IMA battery while leaving the key on in the hybrid to allow the IMA computer to handle the fan control?
Battery got up to 183.6v and I simply ran out of time. In my opinion this should be plenty of power to kick the 12v charging circuit on. Welp, never worked.
My civic, no matter what, will not charge the 12v battery. I have read that you can disable the IMA system and it will still charge north of 1500 RPM. Nope. Negative. Never worked for me. Though I never killed the IMA system while trying (flip the breaker)
The 12v battery tests good. Interstate 151r. Unsure of age, its not marked, but fully charged with my Noco Genius charger, it load tests with my old Schumacher charger between 300-400 CCA (its an old analog gauge with a large wire resistor)
Battery Cables are clean tight shiny bright.
When I first bought the car it had an IMA light, but the battery got disconnected to charge it, before I got to scan it. I've driven the car with a fully charged 12v battery for a far bit around my neighborhood (1-1.5 miles for about 10 mins.) and never got an IMA light. IMA would charge at 3 bars normally, and towards the end, it would occasionally charge at 4-6 bars upon braking. Assist was working and battery meter filled itself up. Giving the car a fair bit of gas would make the assist meter show almost full bars.
Charing with the key on during the first round of charging gave me the P07AF code, pack deterioration. Kind of expected that code.
What am I missing or what should I look for next? I've read probably a hundred forum posts and articles on the IMA batteries, 1st gen and 2nd, and haven't been able to solve this.
#2
11-16-2016, 02:02 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
180V on your grid charger is not sufficient. A fully charged HCH2 pack will go into the 190s. You likely did nothing with your 5-6 hours of grid charging.
Check the ground straps (negative battery cable and others) for continuity. They can deteriorate under the insulation.
Pull the rear seats and the IPU cover. Check the tap voltages:
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f...13/#post260232
The min and max voltages should not be more than 0.20V if the hybrid battery is healthy (0.2V doesn't mean it's healthy, but >0.2V is a bad battery certainty).
A P07AF generally won't prevent charging. There's an individual module input voltage code that can prevent 12V charging if it's bad enough.
I suspect you have more than one code.
Check the ground straps (negative battery cable and others) for continuity. They can deteriorate under the insulation.
Pull the rear seats and the IPU cover. Check the tap voltages:
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f...13/#post260232
The min and max voltages should not be more than 0.20V if the hybrid battery is healthy (0.2V doesn't mean it's healthy, but >0.2V is a bad battery certainty).
A P07AF generally won't prevent charging. There's an individual module input voltage code that can prevent 12V charging if it's bad enough.
I suspect you have more than one code.
#3
11-19-2016, 01:20 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
180V on your grid charger is not sufficient. A fully charged HCH2 pack will go into the 190s. You likely did nothing with your 5-6 hours of grid charging.
Check the ground straps (negative battery cable and others) for continuity. They can deteriorate under the insulation.
Pull the rear seats and the IPU cover. Check the tap voltages:
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f...13/#post260232
The min and max voltages should not be more than 0.20V if the hybrid battery is healthy (0.2V doesn't mean it's healthy, but >0.2V is a bad battery certainty).
A P07AF generally won't prevent charging. There's an individual module input voltage code that can prevent 12V charging if it's bad enough.
I suspect you have more than one code.
Check the ground straps (negative battery cable and others) for continuity. They can deteriorate under the insulation.
Pull the rear seats and the IPU cover. Check the tap voltages:
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f...13/#post260232
The min and max voltages should not be more than 0.20V if the hybrid battery is healthy (0.2V doesn't mean it's healthy, but >0.2V is a bad battery certainty).
A P07AF generally won't prevent charging. There's an individual module input voltage code that can prevent 12V charging if it's bad enough.
I suspect you have more than one code.
Digging into it right now, figured I'd give my first findings. Voltages aren't way off like I've seen on some, but definitely some issues. Im going to start pulling panels under the hood to see what I can find for ground points.
Last edited by mrklean; 11-19-2016 at 01:26 PM.
#4
11-19-2016, 01:45 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
https://goo.gl/photos/rUa9AFsPGZuGAb7i8
Digging into it right now, figured I'd give my first findings. Voltages aren't way off like I've seen on some, but definitely some issues. Im going to start pulling panels under the hood to see what I can find for ground points.
Digging into it right now, figured I'd give my first findings. Voltages aren't way off like I've seen on some, but definitely some issues. Im going to start pulling panels under the hood to see what I can find for ground points.
The likelihood of you getting anywhere with this pack via grid charge/discharge is pretty much zero. I'm surprised you're not getting a P1575 or P1570 (I can't remember the code).
You have likely found the reason why your 12V won't charge.
No point in pulling panels. The 12V battery negative cable is clearly visible as is the ground strap from the transmission. I think the one on the passenger side is readily visible as well. This isn't your problem anyway.
As I see it, you're dead in the water. At 180V, you don't have sufficient voltage to do ANY balancing at all. None.
The only thing I can see you doing at the moment is pulling the pack, pulling the junction board and then charging each half of the pack. It may not be possible to charge the larger half of the pack due to the two LED likely not working well with each other near their minimum of 45V (90V total). One of the LED should be able to charge the smaller "half" of the pack.
Again, the above may not work at all.
#5
11-19-2016, 04:00 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
Those voltages are atrocious. They are WAY off. 2.01V delta vs. 0.20V needed.
The likelihood of you getting anywhere with this pack via grid charge/discharge is pretty much zero. I'm surprised you're not getting a P1575 or P1570 (I can't remember the code).
You have likely found the reason why your 12V won't charge.
No point in pulling panels. The 12V battery negative cable is clearly visible as is the ground strap from the transmission. I think the one on the passenger side is readily visible as well. This isn't your problem anyway.
As I see it, you're dead in the water. At 180V, you don't have sufficient voltage to do ANY balancing at all. None.
The only thing I can see you doing at the moment is pulling the pack, pulling the junction board and then charging each half of the pack. It may not be possible to charge the larger half of the pack due to the two LED likely not working well with each other near their minimum of 45V (90V total). One of the LED should be able to charge the smaller "half" of the pack.
Again, the above may not work at all.
The likelihood of you getting anywhere with this pack via grid charge/discharge is pretty much zero. I'm surprised you're not getting a P1575 or P1570 (I can't remember the code).
You have likely found the reason why your 12V won't charge.
No point in pulling panels. The 12V battery negative cable is clearly visible as is the ground strap from the transmission. I think the one on the passenger side is readily visible as well. This isn't your problem anyway.
As I see it, you're dead in the water. At 180V, you don't have sufficient voltage to do ANY balancing at all. None.
The only thing I can see you doing at the moment is pulling the pack, pulling the junction board and then charging each half of the pack. It may not be possible to charge the larger half of the pack due to the two LED likely not working well with each other near their minimum of 45V (90V total). One of the LED should be able to charge the smaller "half" of the pack.
Again, the above may not work at all.
#6
11-19-2016, 04:12 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
Not without turning the master switch off and only getting charging between about 1500 and 3500rpm. Even then, those tap voltages can be so bad, the DC-DC converter may be disabled.
#7
11-21-2016, 03:55 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
Do you have a recommendation for a replacement for the super brain 989 I've seen everyone using? If I'm going to do this, I'll do it right and charge by stick.
#8
11-21-2016, 05:06 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
Doing it right is replacing the pack. I have processed 15 HCH2 packs yielding 3 packs. 1 really good one, 1 okay (grid charge every 3-6 months) and 1 that gets by (grid charge every month or so).
I have a few thousand dollars worth of stuff to help me do this at levels well beyond what the superbrain 989 can do (which is almost impossible to find). If you think you'll get better results, go for it.
Bottom line is you'll be lucky to get 3 months out of a stick-level reconditioning. I've seen it time and time again. Scroll down a few entries in this subforum alone, or just click and start reading from here:
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f...26/#post260567
3 reconditioned packs failed in 4 months. You think you're going to do it better than someone doing it professionally?
You're talking about reconditioning a pack that has a 1 in 6 failure rate within 5-7 years OF NEW according to Consumer Reports 2013 survey. HCH2 packs are complete ****.
I take it you haven't bothered to read any of the links in my signature?
I have a few thousand dollars worth of stuff to help me do this at levels well beyond what the superbrain 989 can do (which is almost impossible to find). If you think you'll get better results, go for it.
Bottom line is you'll be lucky to get 3 months out of a stick-level reconditioning. I've seen it time and time again. Scroll down a few entries in this subforum alone, or just click and start reading from here:
https://www.greenhybrid.com/forums/f...26/#post260567
3 reconditioned packs failed in 4 months. You think you're going to do it better than someone doing it professionally?
You're talking about reconditioning a pack that has a 1 in 6 failure rate within 5-7 years OF NEW according to Consumer Reports 2013 survey. HCH2 packs are complete ****.
I take it you haven't bothered to read any of the links in my signature?
#9
11-22-2016, 04:56 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
I have read your posts and scores of others. I am not looking for an end all be all fix with individual stick charging and grading. I am looking for a cheap $ wise, as my labor is free, solution to my problem.
Imho, if I pull this pack apart, get it to support the IMA system and 12v system at a lessened MPG rate, and have to grid charge it often to maintain that ability, then fine so be it. It sure beats spending the large chunk of cash to replace that system.
So any suggestions on a charger that supports discharge?
And yes I realize you offer a DIY setup in your signature, I was curious if there were any off the shelf products that could be used that I might be able to repurpose for other batteries.
Imho, if I pull this pack apart, get it to support the IMA system and 12v system at a lessened MPG rate, and have to grid charge it often to maintain that ability, then fine so be it. It sure beats spending the large chunk of cash to replace that system.
So any suggestions on a charger that supports discharge?
And yes I realize you offer a DIY setup in your signature, I was curious if there were any off the shelf products that could be used that I might be able to repurpose for other batteries.
#10
11-22-2016, 06:41 PM
Re: 2007 Civic Will not charge 12v no matter what
I'm just trying to stress the fact that your chances of achieving your stated goal are low. The following *may* get you there, but there are no guarantees:
https://hybridautomotive.com/collect...ant=5576553796
https://hybridautomotive.com/collect...ant=5576553796
