TC and F/awd vehicles.
#11
06-03-2009, 06:13 AM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
Now read:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fus...#page=Feature5
"..automatically applies the brakes and modulates engine torque whenever it detects wheel slip..."
That very adequately, succinctly, describes the TC, Traction Control, aspects of Ford's AdvanceTrac ESC (Electronic Stability Control).
So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg...??
See the conflict..??!!
If wheelspin/slip is a criteria for switching engine torque to the rear driveline as stated in your "link", then what is the need (for closing the barn door after..?) because the above clearly states that the engine has just been, or is ALREADY dethrottled, and (front??) brakes are being "modulated".
I just simply do not, cannot believe that the Ford AdvanceTrac design engineers are as stupid as these two linked statements seem to imply.
What SHOULD happen is that upon front wheelspin/slip detection the rear driveline is engaged at the 50% level and ONLY then would TC functionality be activated should wheelspin/slip persist.
On the other hand there is the old "safety" bug-a-boo regarding the need to, as instantly as technically possible, to recover from loss of traction on the FRONT wheels. So it is entirely possible that the initial action is to BOTH activate TC functionality AND route the majority of torque toward the rear. Given that the "normal" torque distribution is only as high as 50/50, TC "Modulation" of the front brakes would certainly move the majority of engine torque to the rear quickly.
Keep in mind that the design engineers cannot know, forecast, just how serious, DEADLY SERIOUS, the circumstance might be when those front DRIVE wheels develop slip. Heading into a uphill right turn, steep drop-off to your left, on a snow covered road up a mountain pass..??
Believe me, you will WANT instant TC activation.
So maybe both statements are correct AND the Ford engineers are not dumb but just stuck with the realities of the potential hAZARDS of FWD and F/awd.
Shame the car doesn't start out with the majority of engine torque to the rear, R/awd.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fus...#page=Feature5
"..automatically applies the brakes and modulates engine torque whenever it detects wheel slip..."
That very adequately, succinctly, describes the TC, Traction Control, aspects of Ford's AdvanceTrac ESC (Electronic Stability Control).
So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg...??
See the conflict..??!!
If wheelspin/slip is a criteria for switching engine torque to the rear driveline as stated in your "link", then what is the need (for closing the barn door after..?) because the above clearly states that the engine has just been, or is ALREADY dethrottled, and (front??) brakes are being "modulated".
I just simply do not, cannot believe that the Ford AdvanceTrac design engineers are as stupid as these two linked statements seem to imply.
What SHOULD happen is that upon front wheelspin/slip detection the rear driveline is engaged at the 50% level and ONLY then would TC functionality be activated should wheelspin/slip persist.
On the other hand there is the old "safety" bug-a-boo regarding the need to, as instantly as technically possible, to recover from loss of traction on the FRONT wheels. So it is entirely possible that the initial action is to BOTH activate TC functionality AND route the majority of torque toward the rear. Given that the "normal" torque distribution is only as high as 50/50, TC "Modulation" of the front brakes would certainly move the majority of engine torque to the rear quickly.
Keep in mind that the design engineers cannot know, forecast, just how serious, DEADLY SERIOUS, the circumstance might be when those front DRIVE wheels develop slip. Heading into a uphill right turn, steep drop-off to your left, on a snow covered road up a mountain pass..??
Believe me, you will WANT instant TC activation.
So maybe both statements are correct AND the Ford engineers are not dumb but just stuck with the realities of the potential hAZARDS of FWD and F/awd.
Shame the car doesn't start out with the majority of engine torque to the rear, R/awd.
#12
06-03-2009, 07:11 AM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I put wwest on my ignore list long ago, so I only see his stuff when someone quotes him...
The quote above should be taken with a very large grain of salt since he is just speculating about what he believes a FEH should do and how it "ought" to work.
He neither owns one nor drives one.
Be nice if he had some engineering background so that he at least understood the systems he writes about.
But alas... 'nuff said.
The quote above should be taken with a very large grain of salt since he is just speculating about what he believes a FEH should do and how it "ought" to work.
He neither owns one nor drives one.
Be nice if he had some engineering background so that he at least understood the systems he writes about.
But alas... 'nuff said.
#13
06-03-2009, 08:58 AM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I put wwest on my ignore list long ago, so I only see his stuff when someone quotes him...
The quote above should be taken with a very large grain of salt since he is just speculating about what he believes a FEH should do and how it "ought" to work.
He neither owns one nor drives one.
Be nice if he had some engineering background so that he at least understood the systems he writes about.
But alas... 'nuff said.
The quote above should be taken with a very large grain of salt since he is just speculating about what he believes a FEH should do and how it "ought" to work.
He neither owns one nor drives one.
Be nice if he had some engineering background so that he at least understood the systems he writes about.
But alas... 'nuff said.
#14
06-03-2009, 11:45 AM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
Oh really?
Even if they're off the shelf units used in many cars, how Ford implements it in the FEH, software, sensors, & integration with other components, will differ somewhat. Even from year to year there can be differences for the same model line.
If someone wants to id what he says as general info... fine.
But if he advertises it as fact for the FEH, I'd kind of like to know that he has a real basis for saying what he says, like maybe he has observed it in his FEH.
Just a minor request!
Even if they're off the shelf units used in many cars, how Ford implements it in the FEH, software, sensors, & integration with other components, will differ somewhat. Even from year to year there can be differences for the same model line.
If someone wants to id what he says as general info... fine.
But if he advertises it as fact for the FEH, I'd kind of like to know that he has a real basis for saying what he says, like maybe he has observed it in his FEH.
Just a minor request!
#15
06-03-2009, 12:07 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
Oh really?
Even if they're off the shelf units used in many cars, how Ford implements it in the FEH, software, sensors, & integration with other components, will differ somewhat. Even from year to year there can be differences for the same model line.
If someone wants to id what he says as general info... fine.
But if he advertises it as fact for the FEH, I'd kind of like to know that he has a real basis for saying what he says, like maybe he has observed it in his FEH.
Just a minor request!
Even if they're off the shelf units used in many cars, how Ford implements it in the FEH, software, sensors, & integration with other components, will differ somewhat. Even from year to year there can be differences for the same model line.
If someone wants to id what he says as general info... fine.
But if he advertises it as fact for the FEH, I'd kind of like to know that he has a real basis for saying what he says, like maybe he has observed it in his FEH.
Just a minor request!
There's only one shop manual for the FE and FEH. No specific differences are mentioned for operation of either but detail operations of most systems aren't given. There might be differences in the details between a FE and FEH but basics will be the same.
#16
06-03-2009, 02:48 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I have the shop manual for my FEH, I ordered it when I got the car, as I have for every car I've ever bought (8 total over the years since a '71 Plymouth). Every one went around 160,000 miles with me doing most of the work.
I learned enough on these cars to then take my '92 Suburban to (presently) 381,000 miles & 17 years and then my Mustang to (presently) 253,000 miles. I chose to try this life extension to help finance my kids through college and it helped, alot.
The way Detroit makes cars as inexpensively as they do is with platform cars. Just because there are common hardware components across a number of vehicles doesn't mean everything is precisely the same, particularly with software versions and when you get into things like brakes there can be different orifices and pressure proportioners.
When you have a major difference between a conventional Escape and a Hybrid the chance that stuff is different is greater.
But in this case this guy doesn't even own an Escape, he owns one of the Japanese cars like the Prius.
As I said: if he wants to advertise something as general info from his experience on his Prius(?), OK. Its just tacky to come on pontificating when he doesn't even own or drive one.
PS If you think knowing your way around the 8 Detroit shop manuals I've worked from is difficult, try knowing your way around the Reactor & Propulsion Plant Manuals for a Nuclear Submarine.
Alas... 'nuff said!
I learned enough on these cars to then take my '92 Suburban to (presently) 381,000 miles & 17 years and then my Mustang to (presently) 253,000 miles. I chose to try this life extension to help finance my kids through college and it helped, alot.
The way Detroit makes cars as inexpensively as they do is with platform cars. Just because there are common hardware components across a number of vehicles doesn't mean everything is precisely the same, particularly with software versions and when you get into things like brakes there can be different orifices and pressure proportioners.
When you have a major difference between a conventional Escape and a Hybrid the chance that stuff is different is greater.
But in this case this guy doesn't even own an Escape, he owns one of the Japanese cars like the Prius.
As I said: if he wants to advertise something as general info from his experience on his Prius(?), OK. Its just tacky to come on pontificating when he doesn't even own or drive one.
PS If you think knowing your way around the 8 Detroit shop manuals I've worked from is difficult, try knowing your way around the Reactor & Propulsion Plant Manuals for a Nuclear Submarine.
Alas... 'nuff said!
#17
06-03-2009, 03:11 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I have the shop manual for my FEH, I ordered it when I got the car, as I have for every car I've ever bought (8 total over the years since a '71 Plymouth). Every one went around 160,000 miles with me doing most of the work.
I learned enough on these cars to then take my '92 Suburban to (presently) 381,000 miles & 17 years and then my Mustang to (presently) 253,000 miles. I chose to try this life extension to help finance my kids through college and it helped, alot.
The way Detroit makes cars as inexpensively as they do is with platform cars. Just because there are common hardware components across a number of vehicles doesn't mean everything is precisely the same, particularly with software versions and when you get into things like brakes there can be different orifices and pressure proportioners.
When you have a major difference between a conventional Escape and a Hybrid the chance that stuff is different is greater.
But in this case this guy doesn't even own an Escape, he owns one of the Japanese cars like the Prius.
As I said: if he wants to advertise something as general info from his experience on his Prius(?), OK. Its just tacky to come on pontificating when he doesn't even own or drive one.
PS If you think knowing your way around the 8 Detroit shop manuals I've worked from is difficult, try knowing your way around the Reactor & Propulsion Plant Manuals for a Nuclear Submarine.
Alas... 'nuff said!
I learned enough on these cars to then take my '92 Suburban to (presently) 381,000 miles & 17 years and then my Mustang to (presently) 253,000 miles. I chose to try this life extension to help finance my kids through college and it helped, alot.
The way Detroit makes cars as inexpensively as they do is with platform cars. Just because there are common hardware components across a number of vehicles doesn't mean everything is precisely the same, particularly with software versions and when you get into things like brakes there can be different orifices and pressure proportioners.
When you have a major difference between a conventional Escape and a Hybrid the chance that stuff is different is greater.
But in this case this guy doesn't even own an Escape, he owns one of the Japanese cars like the Prius.
As I said: if he wants to advertise something as general info from his experience on his Prius(?), OK. Its just tacky to come on pontificating when he doesn't even own or drive one.
PS If you think knowing your way around the 8 Detroit shop manuals I've worked from is difficult, try knowing your way around the Reactor & Propulsion Plant Manuals for a Nuclear Submarine.
Alas... 'nuff said!
Don't tell me...naw, couldn't be,..
Were you by chance one of my students back at Great Lakes Naval training center back in the early to mid-sixties...??
#18
06-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
Look at this demo right from Ford: http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/awd and pick your driving conditions.
#19
06-03-2009, 03:23 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I have the shop manual for my FEH, I ordered it when I got the car, as I have for every car I've ever bought (8 total over the years since a '71 Plymouth). Every one went around 160,000 miles with me doing most of the work.
I learned enough on these cars to then take my '92 Suburban to (presently) 381,000 miles & 17 years and then my Mustang to (presently) 253,000 miles. I chose to try this life extension to help finance my kids through college and it helped, alot.
The way Detroit makes cars as inexpensively as they do is with platform cars. Just because there are common hardware components across a number of vehicles doesn't mean everything is precisely the same, particularly with software versions and when you get into things like brakes there can be different orifices and pressure proportioners.
When you have a major difference between a conventional Escape and a Hybrid the chance that stuff is different is greater.
But in this case this guy doesn't even own an Escape, he owns one of the Japanese cars like the Prius.
As I said: if he wants to advertise something as general info from his experience on his Prius(?), OK. Its just tacky to come on pontificating when he doesn't even own or drive one.
PS If you think knowing your way around the 8 Detroit shop manuals I've worked from is difficult, try knowing your way around the Reactor & Propulsion Plant Manuals for a Nuclear Submarine.
Alas... 'nuff said!
I learned enough on these cars to then take my '92 Suburban to (presently) 381,000 miles & 17 years and then my Mustang to (presently) 253,000 miles. I chose to try this life extension to help finance my kids through college and it helped, alot.
The way Detroit makes cars as inexpensively as they do is with platform cars. Just because there are common hardware components across a number of vehicles doesn't mean everything is precisely the same, particularly with software versions and when you get into things like brakes there can be different orifices and pressure proportioners.
When you have a major difference between a conventional Escape and a Hybrid the chance that stuff is different is greater.
But in this case this guy doesn't even own an Escape, he owns one of the Japanese cars like the Prius.
As I said: if he wants to advertise something as general info from his experience on his Prius(?), OK. Its just tacky to come on pontificating when he doesn't even own or drive one.
PS If you think knowing your way around the 8 Detroit shop manuals I've worked from is difficult, try knowing your way around the Reactor & Propulsion Plant Manuals for a Nuclear Submarine.
Alas... 'nuff said!
If there's anything that going to be simililar between a FE and FEH, it's going to be the TC, ABS and AWD. Sure they might be tweaked a bit between the two but no major differences.
I'm not complaining about the Ford manuals being difficult at all! In fact, I wish they'd go into to way more detail than they do, their theory of operation is way to basic for me.
No Nuc Subs for me, I was on the water, ET-N.
