Here is the long story as short as possible. Feel free to skim or skip to the questions section if you don’t want to read it.

I recently purchased a donor vehicle for parts (2005 Civic Hybrid with CVT). It had a dead 12V battery and no exhaust system at all but I was assured that it ran well and had no known transmission issues. Unfortunately it was very far from my home. I arranged to have a friend join me on a road trip to bring it home. I brought a borrowed exhaust manifold/catalytic converter and a fresh 12v battery to put on it.

The good news:
- It did indeed start right up and ran fine.
- The transmission (initially) worked fine and a few-mile test drive including highway speeds was successful.
- Body, suspension, tires and interior are in very good condition.
- The IMA light never went on so the high voltage battery appears to be in good condition.

The bad news:
- The day was cold and snowy and the car was parked in a dirt parking low with 8 inches of snow on it. (The weather didn’t affect the car but it added time pressure and made evaluation more difficult.)
- The car made some very unhappy noises.
1) A high pitched whine similar to a belt driven power steering system low on fluid. Needless to say, steering did not change this sound because it has electronic power steering.
2) A significant growl or grinding sound when put into drive or reverse. The sound was most noticeable before one starting moving. Not sure if it reduced when under way because the exhaust sound drowned it out. (Remember, no exhaust system after cat #1.)
- At the very end of the test drive it seemed to lose traction intermittently but I was on slush-covered pavement so the cause was not clear.
- The transmission fluid was dirty with particulate but not uniformly dark (like bad motor oil would be). The level was in the middle of the range but may have been higher if I waited the full minute after turning the engine off.

At this point I was conflicted about the purchase but was already fairly committed because I had a lot of time into it and I didn’t really want to spend more time in the cold to remove my parts and go back empty-handed. The car obviously had transmission problems but the good parts still made it worth it. I got the price down even lower (to $300) and completed the transaction and hoped it would make the long drive home.

- After fiddling with a sticky power window while the car idled for 5-10 minutes, I got back in the car to get under way and found that it would NO LONGER ENGAGE IN FORWARD OR REVERSE. (Arrgh, right after I handed over the cash and the seller left!) It seemed fairly clear that this was the classic bad start clutch, but worse than I thought.

I debated my options with my friend while letting the car sit for about 15 minutes. We were then able to get it back into the parking lot under its own power. (Trans still noisy but engaged normally.) We decided to leave the car there rather than risk it being impounded if it died on the side of the road far from home.

You can beat me up about the bad decision to buy the car if you want, but the current situation is that I have to make another trip out there one way or another, so I’m going to try to get it home. The cheapest towing option for me would involve renting a ¾ ton pickup and a tow dolly and would run $300-$350 all in (fees, gas , etc.) which makes it financially not worth it, so…

Questions:

A) Based on my readings here and elsewhere, it seems like the start clutch has gone bad. Can those with experience either confirm that the symptoms described above fit this or suggest another likely cause?

B) Can anyone tell me if the high pitched whine is part of the start clutch issue or, if not, what else it might be?

C) The forums suggest that a fluid change may at least temporarily improve the start clutch functioning. Does your experience confirm this or could it possibly make it worse (by removing some friction the dirty fluid provided)?

D) If a fluid change would help, is there a different fluid than the specified Honda CVT fluid that might increase friction in the start clutch? Has anyone ever successfully tried this?

I am not too worried about long-term damage to the transmission. I just need to get it about 190 miles to home. If the transmission is used at all after that, it will be rebuilt first.

E) I live in Michigan so the trip is all pretty flat and on the freeway almost all the way. Once I’m on my way there should be very little stress on the start clutch. I will make no unnecessary stops and keep my rpms as steady as possible. Think it’ll work?

Sorry for the long post. I like to give as much detail as possible to make it easier to answer my questions.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

 

A) Particulates are a huge concern. Potential particulates are tyipcally chunks of metal from the CVT. I would conclude that every single mile you get out of that CVT is a blessing.

B) I really can't say.

C) A fluid change has two benefits: 1) it allows you to see the condition of the oil and any particulates and 2) potentially improve function. The idea that replacing old fluid with new fluid is in any way bad is being silly. If a fluid change causes a failure, it was going to happen anyway.

Note that a fluid change is only a little over half the total fluid capacity. To actually completely change the fluid a "flush" is done by doing 3 fluid changes with driving in between. At that point, you have about 95% "new" fluid.

D) Absolutely not. CVT fluid was an improvement on their regular ATF specifically for the HCH2. They passed it back to prior models with improved function. Every instance I've read of using non-Honda CVT fluid has resulted in reduced performance, typically slipping.

Much easier to replace CVT than rebuild. Parts are incredibly expensive and may not be readily available due to a lack of support for these older hybrids further exacerbated by supply chain issues.

E) I can't speculate. If fluid changes improve performance, it improves the chances.

 

Thanks for the reply.

I only got a quick glance at the fluid on the dipstick as the seller was holding it. I didn't examine it up close or feel it. My impression was that there were areas where it was transparent amber color as expected and other areas where there were concentrations of gray matter. The particles were not individually discernible like you might find from grinding gears.

I agree completely that "If a fluid change causes a failure, it was going to happen anyway." However, it could be bad in the short term because if it causes slipping (by exposing the damage that has already been done) it reduces the chances that I can get the vehicle home under its own power.

Good info on the fluid. I was planning to default to that unless someone specifically said that a specific other fluid had reduced the slipping.

I have rebuilt one of these in the past. Some parts are very expensive (push belt, pulleys, flex plate), but a full rebuild kit with all seals and new frictions and steels for the start and reverse clutches was reasonable (I think ~$150 a couple years ago). If you need to replace a bearing (my case) it may add $15-$40 each. The true cost is the labor and potentially the special tools if you can't borrow one or make it yourself. It's finicky and not a beginner's project but you can save yourself a ton.

I know you've had several of these vehicles. Have you personally experienced the bad start clutch issue? Are my vehicle's symptoms consistent with that problem?
If so, I'm going to give the fluid change a try and hope for the best.

Has anyone else tried a fluid change with positive results?

 

Sounds like you're the pro here.

Personally, at this point I would look at the cost of renting a car trailer/dolly and towing it home.

 

UPDATE

Well, I had already looked at the cost of renting a tow vehicle and dolly. It was going to be $350 minimum including gas. Didn't seem worth it considering I paid $300 for the car. Either way it was going to take a full day of my time.

Anyway, I got the car home yesterday.
Got out there. It moved under its own power (reluctantly) to some concrete where I could jack it up. Changed the trans fluid. Drove it 2 doors down to the gas station to fill up. It didn't feel different. Headed home with my friend following. 5 miles down the road there were 2 stop lights followed by a hill after getting on the rural highway. It was slipping badly. Got it to the top of the hill and let it rest for 10 minutes. Figured the downhill run would help me get it back up to speed when I restarted. After that I figured I wouldn't have to stop again until I got a few blocks from my door.

After the rest, I got it going and was very careful to keep the RPMs as steady as possible. We made it another 120 miles and then it started slipping badly just trying to maintain a steady speed on mostly flat road. We were now in an urban area and, with difficulty, we got it up an exit ramp and to a parking lot (involved a 10 minute wait at the top of the ramp). After ~30 minute rest we tried it in the parking lot but it didn't seem promising. I had enough CVT fluid for a second change so we decided to give that a try. The used fluid came out like water because it was so warm.

After the 2nd fluid change we babied it back onto the freeway and the downramp helped us get it back up to speed. We then managed to get it the remaining 70 miles to my destination. Getting into the neighborhood required a couple stop/starts and that fried it enough that we had to push it the last 1/2 block. After it sat for 5 minutes while we moved another car out of the way, I was able to park it mostly under its own power.

So for any future readers who find themselves in a similar situation, here are some things that may help:

**First of all, even being very prepared and careful, what I did involved various types of risk. If you have the means, some sort of towing or trailering is a much better option. **

For those of you who are foolhardy or just curious, read on.

Lessons Learned:
1) I'm sure it didn't hurt, but I'm not convinced that changing the fluid helped at all. With old or new fluid, after 2-3 accelerations (from stop, up hills, etc) it was bad enough that I couldn't continue.
2) Once you are underway, you can go a long way as long as you don't allow the the force of the engine to break the grip of the start clutch friction surfaces and start to slip. If you are on perfectly flat ground, cruise control can help with that. However, once you get to a hill, it's better to keep gas pedal (and thus the engine's torque) steady and allow the car to slow down. If you, or the cruise control, try to keep your speed steady as you go up a hill it will require more force from the engine likely causing the clutch to break free and start slipping. Generally, you will be able to get the speed back up when going down the hill. If you do have to speed up on flat ground, do so very slowly.
3) The slipping seems to be more dependent on the temperature of the CVT fluid than the age or condition. Slipping rapidly heats the fluid up, driving heats it up too, but more slowly. The second fluid change may have helped only because I was replacing hot thin fluid with fluid that was a higher viscosity just because it was cool. Both fluids were essentially brand new. Yes, the used fluid probably had more sludge, but the fact that waiting/cooling always made the transmission perform better (even with the original, very dirty fluid) also supports this hypothesis. Corollary: If you have to try this, you'll probably have more success the colder it is out. Doing it at night might help and also reduce the amount of traffic you have to deal with. (If I tried this in the summer I probably would not have made it home.)
4) Its important to have a chase vehicle. First, because you're very likely going to be forced to stop and you may not get it moving again. Second, the following vehicle provides a safety buffer for the times when you may be traveling slower that the cars coming up behind you.

 

Glad you made it.