Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hi all.

First post. I purchased a 2006 Civic Hybrid spring of this year. Shortly after, I noticed the constant re-calibration of the battery. Started my research and well... here I am.

The car has about 126k miles on it. The dealer saw me comming and I feel like I was sold a lemon. But I got it for $7K and that's a pretty sweet deal... if I can get the IMA battery back into shape.

So... I purchased a used battery for $480. The guy said it came from a 2006 with 36k miles on it. Sure.

Anyway I measured all of 75 volts with my Fluke volt meter before putting it on a trickle charger (home built).

There is really no way of knowing the value of a battery without testing it under a load condition. It can be junk and still put out 158 volts on a meter.

Anyway, I have one IMAX B6 currently with nine more on order. I took the battery apart and have started charging one of the sticks. It took me several days to get the charge settings right. I think I'm good now.

For those interested I'll post some pictures later. When I get the other nine chargers, I figure it will take me a minimum of three days to cycle all of the batteries in one IMA assembly.

Once I've done that, I'll take the IMA assembly out of my Civic and start on that. When I have enough good sticks to assemble one good IMA assembly, I'll put it back into the car and share the results.

Happy trails!

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Sounds like a very interesting project! You must be a electrical type person be doing this work ,are you? We certainly would be interested in a any up-dates and pics. Keep us posted. H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thank you Harold,

I have more than a few hobbies... one includes piddling with pic processors and electrical tid bits. I know which end of the soldering pencil to hold and the difference between AC and DC. If you're ever curious I'll splain it to ya.

:-)

There's bits and pieces out there where others have gone before me and a couple of outfits that make a living at same. I choose to save a bit more and do it myself if I can. I always enjoy learning something new and knowing that if something goes wrong later, that I have the knowledge to maybe fix that too.

I'll get some pictures when I can. Right now I don't have much to really look at. Just a charger and a couple of sticks on the kitchen table. But I'll get something on here. I have always gotten a lot from pictures others have posted.

More soon!

Thanks again,

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Gotta commend you on the initiative here. I admire the DIY stuff especially concerning the battery. Definitely need some record of your progress. How are things going? Any news?

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hi Guzz,

Things are slow but steady. I am still using only one battery charger / conditioner. The other nine are between here and China. Bother!

I have some pics but they don't meet the size requirement. I'll shrink them down a bit later and post them.

I have the battery apart and several pair of "sticks" out to charge. I've done six sticks so far and starting a seventh tonight. It takes about 30 hours per stick. With ten chargers It can be done in a few days.

I also purchased some alligator clips and banana plugs to make some longer charging wires. I'll solder all of that together this weekend.

I'll get some pics uploaded in the next couple of days.

Regards,

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Have you determined how many of the sticks were not pulling their weight? If you can determine which are bad ,just replace them and install the pack back in the car for charging? Sounds as if you are progressing along however. H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hi Harold,

Yes, things are progressing. Life keeps getting in the way. Bought a new fridge over the weekend and had to bust out a wall and rebuild it three inches to the left to get the fridge in. So much for progress last weekend.

The pairs of sticks stack like cord wood in the battery case. This is different from the earlier model civics and Honda hybrids. The sticks are permanently attached on one end with a heavy welded tab. For this reason, the sticks are color coded so that they can be arranged properly in their cage.

If I find a bad stick, I plan to cut the metal tab with a dremel, find another (same color) stick and dremel that one, then silver solder them back together with a thick piece of copper. (I could actually use a penny!) Ha! that might do very nicely! Because of the shape of the welded tabs on the ends, I think I can do this without heat damaging the battery.

I haven't yet found any bad sticks. I found one that was a bit less on capacity but I wouldn't throw it out. I'm filling out a chart to track the power charge and discharge. Nothing fancy but it tells the story well enough to choose good over bad.

Currently I am working on the junkyard battery I purchased. The guy said it was from a 2006 civic with 36k miles on it. I thought, "36k miles, right." But so far, I'm six for six. I haven't pulled my civic battery. I'll finish this group of cells and determine how many bad ones I need to replace and then pull the civic battery and start looking for good cells. Once I pull the civic pack, the car is down for the duration. Oh where oh where are my Chinese chargers?:confused:

Pics soon.

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Personally I would have installed the one you purchased and them worked
on the one you knew for sure was defective, But sounds like an interesting
project, So how do you figure out the capacity of an individual cell?

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hi Subdewd,

I've was cautioned not to take a junkyard battery and just install it in the car. You really have no history on the donor car or battery, how long the battery has been sitting, etc. Nimh batteries self-discharge over time (more so than most other battery chemistries). With the expense in your car, and the second-hand battery, a little caution here is a might good thing. :-)

The car still runs fine. I just miss the pep. Too many re-cals per day. It's taking time but worth the effort. When I'm done, I'll know which batteries are bad, which are good, and how to go about this again in the future.

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thank you for helping dispel the myth that Hybrids will be too costly to maintain for long periods. Several metro areas have hybrid battery "rebuild shops" in operation currently and the price to exchange a battery pack will be much lower in the future.

It ain't rocket surgery - just have to know how to do it safely.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hi Red,

Everybody listen up... I'm no expert here. :-) I'm just a do-it-yourselfer trying to save a buck. I'm not stupid either but I can be naieve. I make mistakes and have made some costly ones.

That said, I've done some homework. I know something about electricity and electronics. I've rebuilt way too many combustion engines to recall how many (mostly Hondas) and know my way around the shop and which end to hold a screwdriver (not the pointy end). I'm a mechanical designer by trade and do alright for an old guy without a college degree. I've dabble in lots of things from sugar based rocket fuel to solar water heating. This is just one more of those things to dabble in.

So thank you Red for your kind words. I appreciate them. I just don't want to sound like someone really smart. No... not me. I've just got a Walmart wallet. I fix things cause I just plain have to. Who's got money these days. I have 3/5's of my family in college or private school. Holy CRAP! :-)

But I also enjoy the challenge.

So... here's the thing. I can't fix a bad battery. Pretty much nobody can. You can kick them around with a bit of electricity and maybe give them a bit more life, but chemistry is chemistry and when they wear out they're pretty much done.

The trick is to find the ones that have or are starting to give up. I'll cull the bad ones and put together a package of good ones. Used yes.... but still good. When I'm finished I do not expect to have a "like new" battery. But I don't think I need a new battery to see a nice improvement. That's what we'll find out together.

I appologise for not getting pictures up yet. I promise to have some for you by weeks end. Big party goings on for my teenage son along with a serious house cleaning. I'll work it in there somewhere.

Regards all,

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Subdewd (I like that name). Reminds me of a dog I knew named Phideaux.

I didn't answer your last question...

I am using a charger that allows me to log the cummulative amount of power used to charge and the cummulative amount of power the battery assembly discharges... and do that multiple times un-attended. (That's way too long a sentence) :-)

Put another way, the charger drains the battery assembly and charges the battery assembly three times in a row. While it does, it stores how much power went in and how much came out for each cycle. I can set it up to do up to five cycles at a time. I've chosen three. Three cycles takes between 30 and 35 hours. Yeah... I hear ya!

At the end, I toggle a button on the charger and it numerically displays the power in and the power out for each cycle. I've made a small spread sheet to track those numbers.

When I've cycled through all 22 sticks (battery assemblies), I'll review the numbers to see which ones stand out as being different from the others. The most important numbers are the power out numbers. I want them to be fairly close for each of the battery assemblies.

I know from the numbers that I can expect roughly 5100 miliamp hrs of output from each stick. But I'm not so focused on the output as the balance between all of the sticks.

The Imax B6 charger is a cheap Chinese charger (about $35). It's used by a lot of people to charge their LiPo batteries for their radio controlled gear. But it's not very accurate and most of them know it. But it works well enough and for the price is hard to beat.

I have nine more chargers ordered and my only worry is that between them their accuracy may sway my results a bit. I'm still optimistic that good will be good enough. If I get some numbers from one of them that looks questionable I'll swap it to a known battery assembly and compare the results. Like I said, good will be good enough.

I hope that answers your question. I tend to be long-winded. :-)

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Ok... this is a first picture test. Let's see if it works!

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hey Ross
Looks like you received more chargers.Do those batteries on the table represent 4 of the 22? They are larger than I figured! Looks like fun. H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Ok...

Let's get some pictures up.

So the picture above shows my charging setup. It's not very glamorous. I had visions of battery sticks side by side down a long table with the chargers hooked up side by side. Oh well.

But it's hooked up. I'm cycling eight sticks right now. Well... seven really because one of the chargers I got keeps shutting off. And one more of the chargers has a broken button (not seen in the pictures). And I'm still waiting for two chargers that haven't arrived. :-[

The paper on the table is where I'm collecting my data on the batteries. So far, they've all checked out good. That's encouraging. Either I lucked out and got a good set of batteries or my system of cycling the batteries is not suitable to find issues. I don't think that's the case. We'll see.

My computer is running low on battery power so I'll add more later...

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Hi Harold,

Actually that's eight sticks of the 22 total in the battery pack. The sticks are welded together at one end so you could think of them as a single unit of 12 "d" cells in series. That's not how I'm treating them. I'm charging one stick (out of the two) at a time. If I find a bad six cell stick, I plan to cut them apart at the welded tab, replace the bad stick, and silver solder them back together with a penny. Ha! That should do the trick.

Thanks for looking. Yeah... I'm having fun.

Regards,

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Here's some more pictures.

The first couple of pictures show the battery pack partially disassembled. You can see how they stack in there. On previous year models, the batteries were individual sticks, not pairs, and their electrodes were bolted from both sides of the pack. On the 2006 thru 2008 models, the electrodes are only bolted on one side (the other side being welded together). I think that was a smart idea, though it makes my job of replacing sticks a bit more difficult (but manageable). There really aren't many of us out there doing this.

The other couple of photos show the welded tab from the top and side. This is where I will cut between the two, to separate them and replace a bad stick. Then I'll silver solder a penny across the cut tabs to put it back together. The penny should handle the current no problem and make it a pretty darn strong connection.

I'm talking about doing all of this though I haven't found a single bad stick yet. I expect to find some when I pull my current battery from my car.

More pics later.

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

The pictures are great, Ross!

Thanks for sharing your project with us. I find it very interesting.

Good luck.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Good job Ross! You make it look easy and interesting. If I have problems with my pack, I think I will take it on as well. How much where the chargers? I think I would have taken a chance with the pack with 3600 miles on it and then rebuilt my own. But that's just me. Anyway really interesting stuff you are doing and thanks for sharing. H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thanks guys. It's tedious. But I'm making headway. Most of the chargers are finished as I type this. But I'm too tired to switch them to the next set. Tomorrow morning I think.

As for the battery from the junk yard... They "SAID" it came from a car with 36000 miles on it. But I'm not THAT trusting a person. Get my drift? ;-)

And who knows how long it had been sitting there in the junkyard. Nickel Metal Hydride batteries self-discharge over time. A single cell can also "flip" polarity in a multi-cell pack if they get much lower than .8 volts. That's bad news for a pack.

Theres a lot of electric stuff in the Honda Hybrid. I've been hasty before and paid dearly for it. No... my car is running... first we check out the junk yard battery. Then we put it in. :-) Just sayin. :-)

More as things develop!

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Oh... the Imax B6 chargers were about $37 each or $330 for the nine. I figure when I'm done I'll probably sell them for a few bucks less on ebay and get most of my money back.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Update:

I finished the process of cycling all of the sticks of the junkyard battery pack. I didn't find any bad sticks so I reassembled the pack as I purchased it. I pulled the pack I've been using and swapped this one in. Then I pulled the negative 12volt battery cable for a few minutes and then reconnected it to force a recal on the battery pack.

The first thing I noticed was pep! It gave the car new life (as I hoped). It has more get-up from a standstill and the recals are all but gone. I had the initial recal when I first put it in and another the next day. I haven't seen any others. I put about 160 miles on it over the weekend. MPG went from 37 to a solid 44. That wasn't babying it. I don't hypermile but suspect I could get quite a bit more if I played at it some.

I took a LOT of pictures during re-assembly and in the next week I'll get them up on here.

Meanwhile, I took my other battery pack apart and started the cycling process. Very curious as to what I will find.

The IMAX B6 has become a saga. I ordered nine from China. I received 7. One had a broken button. Another would start the charge cycle then drop out. And over the weekend, two quit altogether! So I'm down to four out of the nine I purchased! I've contacted the seller... waiting to hear back.

More later,

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Good news Ross! Everything we buy now days seems to be made in China and most is not good quality. I for one am getting a bit disgusted with it. Oh well, its too early to rant.Have a good day, H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Have you considered replacing these batteries with higher capacity batteries? For example the Ford Escape Hybrid has 5.5 amp-hour NiMH cells while as high as 11 amp-hour NiMH cells are on the market.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thanks for the reply Harold.

Hi Bill,

I've tossed around the idea of getting new batteries and building a new pack. But I see some fairly nasty risks.

I think these batteries were designed specifically for Honda's hybrid cars. That being said, just what criteria did they design around?

Two things come to mind. Chemistry aside, the physical package appears very robust. They are welded together and without actually taking them apart, I don't know how they made these welds. It's safe to say these babies can spit some serious current when required, without overheating. I think the electrodes, top and bottom are thicker than standard off the shelf stuff. If I run across a totally bad stick of cells, we're gonna answer some of these questions! :-)

The second concern I have is the computer program that controls how these cells are used. I can't be sure, but I think my used HCH2 has the dreaded computer update that so many have complained about. I don't know for sure because I don't know the history of the car and quite frankly, I no longer trust anything that's said by anyone at Honda. (I can't believe I just said that!) Not knowing how the batteries are discharged and charged really leaves me hanging. I assume (*** u me) that Honda tightened up the window of usage on the batteries. I think they charge the batteries less and discharge them less, working the batteries in a smaller range of their usefulness. (I have NOTHING to back up that statement other that what others have said.) I don't know the current draw on the batteries, or the expected temperature load. I just don't know anything. :-)

The batteries you speak of are a bit pricey. About $600 for a full pack of Chineese batteries. The batteries are all in series. That's 132 D-cell batteries end to end. If any one of those Chineese batteries fail then the whole pack fails.

The ends of the Honda sticks are "d" shaped, tapped and mate with the injection-molded plastic protective battery cover. Then all of the elctrodes are bolted to the heads of the batteries. It could be done another way but I'm not sure I'm the one to do it. There's a LOT of work there.

I think the only way I'd do this is to work directly with the manufacturer of NIMH cells and look at a bulk order to keep the prices down. Otherwise your looking at a seriously custom battery. It's the custom related expenses that scares me away. I'm the walmart guy remember. :-)

So I won't be the first on this one. But I'd love to follow someone that was successful at it and had some track record.

All that said... I'd Love to do it!

Thank you for your interest Bill,

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Great project you have done, very useful information. I just bought a used civic hybrid, 2006 too. Doing research to educate more on this car.

Thank you very much on the infor. Hoping to see more.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Ok! Lets start getting some pictures up!

The first picture shows an empty pack. This is what it looks like with the batteries removed.

Then we start putting in batteries. They stack in there filling one layer at a time. All tapped ends facing you. This is how the batteries are attached later. The pictures show how the temperature sensor wires are run to the outside to be connected later.

Each double stick of batteries makes 12 cells in series. Voltage adds in series so each 1.2 volt battery adds to the next giving a total of 14.4 volts.

Here's a quick electricity lesson: (I love to hear myself talk)

Voltage can be thought of like pressure. Pressure pushes water through a pipe, voltage pushes electrons through a wire. The higher the voltage, the more the pressure. Why do we need pressure? Because things resist the movement of these electrons. There is resistance in the wire and other electrical components just like there is resistance to flow of water in the pipe. The more voltage (pressure) you have, the more current (electrons, water) you can push through the wire (pipe).

So... current is how much. Current is the amount of electrons that pass through a conductor in a given space of time. The unit of current is the amp. Most all of our electrical appliances have labels that tell it's voltage and the current(amps) it requires.

Ok... that's enough. Now how can we apply this knowledge?

We (humans) resist the flow of electricity. But if enough voltage is used, then current can be pushed through our bodies and it can hurt! So... how many volts does it require. Generally it takes over 24 volts to start to feel current (to start feeling a shock of electricity). If you've ever touched a bare wire plugged into the wall, you have 120 volts of pressure pushing current through you. Yeah... you felt that!

Now let's get back to these batteries. Each double stick is about 14.4 volts. That's not enough to push much current through us (it's well below 24 volts). Current can pass through us but it's not generally enough for you to feel it. But sometimes, you can feel it. If you've ever touched your tongue to the battery posts of a nine volt battery, you felt that. Your tongue is sensitive and the posts are close together. :confused:

But these battery sticks alone are low enough in voltage to be safe to handle.

When we start bolting them together, they the voltage starts to add up. When one pair of sticks is bolted to the next you get 28.8 volts and that's sitting at the safety threshold. Anything more and you have to be careful and respectful of the energy stored in these babies. When they're all connected there's 158 volts of pressure waiting to push electrons through something. That's a LOT.

Thank you for listening.:zip:

Now more

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

More shots of the pack going together.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Plastic spacers go on next across the pack. They fit in like part of the jigsaw puzzle, locking the battery assemblies in place. Then the metal frame drops on with long bolts. Everything gets bolted up tight.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Next we put on the styrofoam pads and top. Three lower pads, then the top. All held in with push fasteners. I believe these help to channel air through the batteries to cool them.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Styrofoam on. Note, the pack is still very safe to touch.

The next component changes the game a bit. This is where we start connecting the batteries together with this "hat" assembly. I'm not touching two metal components at the same time any more. I'm using a socket wrench that is un-insulated. I don't recommend it. To be sure, I am very careful as I bolt each battery to the assembly.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

The hat going on. Checking wires so that they aren't pinched. I flipped the pack up on end to make it easier to bolt up.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

I checked and double-checked the bolts to be sure they were tight. Electricity doesn't like loose things! Aluminum spacers have to go in... four of them. Then the hat gets a hat. A second hat assembly lines up over the first. Four bolts around.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thank you! Very interesting stuff and thanks for all the great detail and pics. You must have found the work very gratifying and interesting.Great job! H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

I forgot to mention the switch above. The switch should remain off while working on the pack. It splits the pack voltage, basically putting a disconnect halfway through the pack. It doesn't guarantee you won't get shocked but it helps. I'm still very aware of the danger of electrocution here. No desire to test it.

Next we are bolting up the electrodes. There are two in particular that make me cautious because Honda took the time to put caps over the holes. I don't know about you, but that sends a signal to me. Extra care required. Let's not touch anything while we bolt that one down.

Don't forget to hook up those temperature sensors. Nice grooves in the plastic hat assemblies to run the wires through. Very clean and neat.

Pack complete!

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thanks Harold,

I think we'll stop here for tonight. It takes hours to get all this stuff uploaded. I'll try to finish tomorrow with the install into the car.

Night all!

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Rossfree- your answer was a good one. I understand the issues you raised and agree. Just wondering you had thought through them and what you concluded.

When I Asked that question over on the Ford Escape Hybrid section all I got was crap answers.

So thanks for thinking through these things. You're on the money with your thinking.

Still I think that these will become replaceable in the future. *** you've shown these aren't rocket science.

BTW its OK to use uninsulated tools... just put an insulating mat under your feet and remember to let go of the wrench before you step off the mat.

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thanks for the mat solution Bill. Much safer way to go. A good thick rubber mat. What kind do you recommend Bill? H

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Thank you Bill and Harold. And thanks to others reading this post. I'm glad someone is enjoying this with me.

I do have a correction Bill, on your thought about a rubber matt. I'm not a know-it-all, but I know this one. :-)

Electricity travels in a loop. For example, a battery post connected to a wire, through a light bulb and then back to the other battery post. It always comes back, some way, some how. Battery to wire to load (light bulb, motor, heater, etc...) to wire to battery. Always a loop.

The outlets in our home are earth grounded. That way, if a frayed wire touches the metal cabinet or cast-iron top of your tablesaw, or your metal dishwasher, or your big nasty amplifier, the grounded metal in that appliance takes that short directly to ground protecting you. The appliance has a wire screwed to the metal of the appliance. That wire is connected to the third prong plugged in to your outlet, and that third hole in the outlet is connected to the ground under your home. It's likely that a short would trip the circuit breaker in your home.

The loop here, is through the ground, because the source of electricity (the transformer on the telephone pole) is connected to the ground at the base of the pole. It is also connected to a copper rod pounded into the ground where the electricity enters your house. It is also likely connected to the copper pipes in your home. Redundancy for safety. Lots of grounds.

Our batteries are not connected to the ground. There's no loop there. You could be standing waist deep in your swimming pool and touch one of the poles of the battery with 150 volts and nothing would happen (try not to drop the battery in the pool!).

How about a car? Your car is connected to the negative side of its 12 volt battery. That simplifies the wiring in your car. It only takes one wire connected to the positive terminal of your battery and attached to a light bulb to make it work, because the other side of the light bulb can be connected to the metal of the car. There's your loop.

You can stand on wet pavement and touch the battery post on your car battery, either battery post, and nothing happens (not that it would at a low 12 volts... remember 24 is the magic number). The battery is not connected to the earth. No loop.

So the loop when working on the hybrid battery would be from battery post positive to battery post negative. When bolting the batteries up to the molded hat, you are slowly attatching more and more cells together... 14 volts, 28 volts, 42 volts, etc... Touching the wrong two bolts could connect you to 79 volts or better (worse). The metal tool tightening the bolts is not dangerous in itself. But if you dropped it across two bolts or held it one hand to tighten one bolt while you accidentally touched another bolt with your other hand, or your elbow or whatever else you may have protruding from your person at the time, and watch the sparks fly!

But you could do it standing barefoot on a wet floor. No problem. Just don't stand on the wet floor and play with a chineese battery charger plugged into the wall!

Not knowing which bolts are connected to which batteries, I treat them all as though they could each electrocute me. One way that could have been much safer would have been for me to put a plastic sheet over the entire "hat" with a single hole in it. Then I could have put the bolts on one at a time through the hole and not likely touch any other bolt or electrode. Come to think about it... that's how I will do it next time!

I hope that sheds some light on things.

Regards!

Ross

Re: Battery refurbish in process - IMAX B6
 

Ross,

Thanks for posting all your info, pictures, and insights. It's not something I would attempt to do, but I'm sure it will be helpful to others who are willing and able to tackle a technical job such as this.

Good luck with your battery pack; I hope it serves you well with no problems.