How many times do you want to see them? Links to these numbers were provided in the "tailgaters" thread. They're from the EPA. I'm guessing you really don't care about facts, though.

______PZEV____LEV II___Difference
NOx___0.02____0.07____3.5 PZEV vehicles = 1 LEV II vehicle
NMOG_ 0.01____0.09____9 PZEV vehicles = 1 LEV II vehicle
CO____1.0_____4.2_____4 PZEV vehicles = 1 LEV II vehicle
PM____0.01____0.01____Equal
HCHO__0.004___0.018___4.5 PZEV vehicles = 1 LEV II vehicle

I'll admit I jumped the gun on the seven passenger SUV... looks like it's closer to three or four (except on particulates, where they are equal). Lets face facts, though... when was the last time you saw an SUV in the carpool lane packed with more than four persons?

 

Jeff as you kindly noted before, in this case, it is perhaps best to save our fingers.

Perhaps Livvie has her own reasons to feel the way she does and no amount of certifiable empirical facts will change that.


Cheers;


MSantos

 

Let's face facts.... try running your numbers on a car the same size as your hybrid... then see who's smoking.

 

Wow... another kool-aid drinker.

 

Since I doubt anybody will give an apple's to apple comparison... I will.

A civic hybrid puts out 3.7tons/year of greenhouse gas emissions.
A civic with 2 people in it... puts out 2.75tons/year

That's 26% more pollution coming out of a hybrid.


A civic hybrid consumes 7 barrels of fuel per year.
A civic with 2 people in it... consumes 5 barrels of fuel per year.

That's 29% more fuel consumed by a hybrid.

These numbers are taken right out of your precious epa site.

 

Livvie,

A valid point. I'll certainly agree that two persons in a standard Civic beats one in a Civic hybrid on emissions-per-person.

I don't know about where you live (perhaps Boston?), but in CA most of what's on the road are SUVs and pickups. Huge tanks like Expeditions and H2s.

I believe the laws (allowing HCHII / Prius / Insight) on the carpool lanes were enacted to encourage folks to switch from the gas guzzlers that are so prevalent here to the hybrids. It worked for me. I changed from an Isuzu Trooper getting 15 mpg (and because it was a '95 model, polluting at much higher levels than those mentioned in my earlier notes). So for me at least, I've lightened the emissions load considerably from where I was before.

As for why the standard Civic (or any other fuel efficient and reasonably clean vehicle) isn't allowed in the carpool lane, well, I guess they just had to set the bar somewhere. Right or wrong, it was set at PZEV with +45mpg. I could have saved some money by going with a standard Civic. But the carpool access is what really pushed me to give up the old beast. Without that benefit I'd likely still be in the Trooper today... so their logic worked.

Incidentally, I'm in the carpool lane maybe 15 - 20% of my commute. The rest of the time the regular lanes move fast enough that I can maintain decent speed and MPG. So my load on the carpool lane is significantly less than you might expect. I suspect other hybrid drivers are the same.

 

Hmmm. Ok. I buy that arguement.

I live in NH but work in the Boston area. I would say there are more cars than trucks/suv here.

"Incidentally, I'm in the carpool lane maybe 15 - 20% of my commute. The rest of the time the regular lanes move fast enough that I can maintain decent speed and MPG. So my load on the carpool lane is significantly less than you might expect. I suspect other hybrid drivers are the same."

Keep in mind, a person commuting with an additional passenger remains commuting with the additional passenger in both HOV and non HOV lanes. So in this case pollution and traffic congestion is minimized here as well.

 

Agreed. But due to the better MPG, using that Hybrid at other times (non-commuting) will probably MORE than make up for this difference while both cars ARE in the HOV lanes. Pollution does not care if you are commuting to work or driving to the grocery store. And it's not likely that your commuting partner in the regular Civic is always commuting with you on the grocery tasks! Point is, it depends on the percentage of miles that are commuting miles. Until that is given consideration, saying 2 in a regular Civic (as though these 2 commuters are ALWAYS using the 1 car together), is better than the Civic Hybrid for emissions and fuel consumption is just speculation. Unless the commuting percentage is near 100% of the car's usage, the Hybrid isn't far behind the 2 commuters.
In these parts (Dallas), it's rare to see an SUV with 4 people in it, even in the HOV lane. Most-times, it's 2 people commuting. Not 4 (or more). Sometimes, you'll see a work-SUV with 4 workers or so.

Agreed, this is the best way. High MPG vehicles are a good alternative, if carpooling is not easily accomplished.

Waste of money is an inaccurate statement as long as gas prices are $2.75 or higher. Break-even is around 100,000 miles or less. Now if you happen to be factoring in a new $2000-$5000 IMA system at 100K, you have a point...

"Silly" incentives are often exactly what fuels (sorry) technology advancement. Without manufacturer AND consumer incentives, most manufacturers will continue the status quo. It's too risky ($$$) to try something radical. If consumers don't buy into it, they'll lose billions. And consumers aren't going to readiliy adopt any new-fangled technology (especially on an expensive purchase like an auto) until they feel some financial risk-insulation for being an early adopter. That was me, in a nutshell. When the incentive went up in 2006, I decided the risk-factor was reasonable enough for me to jump on board.

 

ok... let's not complicate the matter. Let's keep this all to commuting miles. Let's say I commute 70 miles a day to and from work. And maybe 20 of those miles is HOV lane. It's irrelevant that only 20 miles are HOV miles because a person commuting with another passenger is commuting the entire 70 miles with said passenger. The hybrid owner gets the benefit of 20 "traffic free" miles but has contributed more to pollution and congestion for the entire 70 miles.

Exactly... factor in everything and gas prices have to remain really high for current generations to break even. Yes I know there are folks out there saying well that's not the only reason why I bought a hybrid. I'm helping reduce pollution... Ok... so you put a tiny tiny tiny dent, but for every one of you... there are new drivers coming online all the time... Even if they all drove hybrids the amount of pollution globably is increasing at a rate that hybrid technology cannot even come CLOSE to fixing (not by a mile). So people should get off their collective high horse when they make this arguement.


Yes... but I still think that if these incentives continue you will not see any improvements coming from the manufacturers. Actually the only incentive that made sense was the TAX incentive, the HOV incentive still bothers me but if this is what got people to change great. I think we have the technology now to produce a hybrid that cost similar to what we pay now (ok.. maybe a little more) that can double the mpg of it's non-hybrid counterpart. There will be no need for incentives when this is achieved.

 

the next solution for commuters is to get a honda civic gx. those should be much easier to get hov stickers. ng is much cheaper....just pump it at your house.