The prices are MSRP's from both the Saturn and the Ford sites, base automatic and hybrid automatic models. I could have used a different vehicle to compare against, but Ford's site is well done and has information that is easy to find.

15000 miles/year using the EPA average fuel economy numbers. For the VUE GL, this yields around a 95-100 gallon a year savings. You'd get more from a two mode hybrid like the Ford Escape. Still, around a 100 gallons a year is pretty good vs. the non-hybrid.

(In bold on purpose)Basic 4th grade mathematics. Tank gauge reads half full on a 16 gallon tank with a current trip-ticker mileage of 226 miles. This yields a little over 28 mpg.

I'm not every other user, nor does their driving habits, routes, and weather conditions affect my vehicle. But that's a nice attempt at a straw man argument.

You also don't need to be an ***. As I stated above, by looking at the trip mileage and gas gauge you can get a reasonable estimate of fuel economy.
If you've had an elementary course on statistics, you'd understand concepts such as sample size and confidence intervals. The internet is a far cry from a random sampling in this regard. The fact that there are a very small number of GL owners posting to boards makes your argument even less substantial.

What exactly are you arguing anyway? That the full two-moders get better mileage? I don't believe I was arguing that point. In fact, I agree that full hybrids give the better gas economy, and nowhere do I state otherwise.

My VUE is not unique. BTW my first fill-up: 12.826 gallons 366.1 miles. MPG: 28.544.

I did? I thought I was just stating some observations. I noticed that a post had some information in it that didn't seem to match what I've seen. After looking into one example (Ford Escape), I posted the MSRP's. Then I went on to elaborate more on the GL.

Perhaps I'm under the misconception that this site is supposed to contain accurate information instead of a forum for fanbois.

Logical impossibilty? So much for "No Child Left Behind". If you want, I can write out the equations.


A plant? Yeah. That's it. I'm a plant. I explicitly mention the drawbacks of the vehicle. I encourage those that can afford a full hybrid to go with a full hybrid. And yet I'm a plant. I suppose the words ad hominem doesn't mean much to you, does it?

For clarification, here's what I wrote:

If you do primarily city driving, I would recommend against getting the VUE GL. However, if you're more balanced driver, the GL is a decent choice.

Oh yeah, that's a glowing endorsement. Even taken out of context of the original posts, one could hardly call that an advertisement.

I'm still not sure where your attitude comes from, but you sound more like a 12 year old defending his game console as "the best oneZ EVar!!!11!". Odd, considering I never once mention that the VUE is the best hybrid, which anyone can see it is not.

If we use the average EPA for the Ford hybrid vs. Non-hybrid, mathematically you're not going to break even in 2 years unless you do ALOT of driving.

Avg. EPA FEH: 33.5 MPG
Avg. EPA FE: 24 MPG

Assuming 15000 miles/year:

Hybrid: 448 gallons/year
Non: 625 gallons/year

Assuming $2.50 /gallon:

Hybrid: $1120 /year
Non: $1562.5 /year

MSRP delta of Hybrid vs. Non (from the Ford site, base model automatic): $5445

Recoup: $5445/(1562.5-1120) = $5445/$442= 12.3 years

If you're the typical driver you're not recouping the premium in 2 years. If you rack up a lot of miles, then you'll recoup sooner.

Using the same equations for the VUE GL:

Avg. EPA GL: 29 MPG
Avg. EPA FE: 24 MPG

Assuming 15000 miles/year:

Hybrid: 518 gallons/year
Non: 625 gallons/year

Assuming $2.50 /gallon:

Hybrid: $1295 /year
Non: $1562.5 /year

MSRP delta of Hybrid vs. Non (from the Staurn site, base model automatic): $3120

Recoup: $3120/(1562.5-1295) = $3120/$267= 11.7 years

Roughly about the same. The GL has a bigger engine, ABS, and other such amenities thrown in that the base VUE doesn't have, but I wanted to use the raw base prices to be fair.


There you go again, being a complete ***. When did I ever call into question your MPG record? When did I attack you personally? Well, other than this post.

One can hope. The GL has an 8 year warranty. I think other makers have at least an 8 year, maybe longer (Honda has a 10 year I think). However, I didn't say the batteries WILL need to be replaced. Only that IF they needed to be replaced the GL batteries would obviously be cheaper since it has far fewer.

Uh huh. And your sample size is...5? 10? Out of how many sold?

Actually, according to the scenario I used above the recoup time is about the same. Unless Ford and other manufacturers are giving some sweet deals (in which case, I'm sorry I missed them).


No I won't forgive your candor because you've been little more than a braying *** through your entire post. You've contributed nothing constructive to the discussion. Instead of using facts and figures, you've constructed straw man an ad hominem attacks for no reason whatsoever.

The VUE GL has pluses and minuses like every other vehicle. However, it does get better gas milegae than it's counterpart. If you're such a biased biggoted elitest that you have to cut down us poor hybrid peasants who can't muster the $600/month car payment for FEH or a HyHi to make yourself feel good, then that's your problem.


You are wrong, and you've made yourself look like a jackass by immediately launching into an unjustified tirade of a post I made to be informative. You assumed, without provacation, that I was somehow tearing down your precious angelic two mode hybrids so that I could poison the masses with the demon spawn of gas guzzling hell. This is the type of flame/troll banter I expect to see on a politics and religion board, not a **** board discussing hybrids.

I AM a casual owner. I've owned my GL for just over a week.

There's this really cool thing on the internet. It's called a search engine. You type stuff in to search for, and it automagically finds links to it.

I've perused the other parts of the forum. However, a number of postings in the VUE GL forum are cross-posted from saturnfans, which I've already responded to there. BadGL can back me up on that.

I responded to your critiques because they weren't entirely correct. Perish the thought.

WTF?


What the hell are you talking about? What research against the full hybrids? What did I say against them?

Where are you getting all this? Is it because I used your precious Ford Escape in my example? Put in the Lexus. Put in the Mariner. The logic works out the same. I used the Ford Escape as an illustration. I wasn't tearing it down. I wasn't pointless berating it, which seems to be a choice tactic of yours. It's a good hybrid. It gets good gas mileage. If I could afford it, I'd get one myself. But I can't swing the payments. So I got a vehicle that would still meet my needs and was at least hybrid-like, in other words the VUE GL.


I'm sure glad you're not a detective. Listen ignoramus, I understand your worldview encompasses a whole 1 degree focus (mostly on yourself apparently) but just try to comprehend this.

I call it the VUE GL because:

1. That is the name of the vehicle. It's not the VUE. The VUE is a different vehicle. I owned a 2003 VUE before getting this vehicle. It's not the GL either. It is the VUE GL.

2. I'm a professional software engineer. GL acronym means something completely and totally different in my profession which is in no way related to car models.


Your accustaions are completely basis and are developed from your self-serving biased view point. If I were to deduce what you are based on your post, I would have to say you're self-righteous egotistical sociopath that views the world in absolutes and rarely if ever admits that you're wrong. You have the fuse of pubescent, and quite possibly could be classified as having borderline multiple personality disorder, considering:

1. You attacked me without reason or provocation.
2. Made baseless accusations with no proof.
3. Made a feeble attempt to apologize.
4. Went right back to basless attacks and accusations.

Or perhaps I'm just READING WAY TOO MUCH INTO A FEAKIN' FORUM POST.

[/quote]


Questions? What questions? Oh you mean the ranting and raving interspersed with cynical and sarcastic remarks and the occasional question.

Or maybe they became lost in the torrential flood of accusatory nonsense and blather.

Was it buried under the unprovoked personal attacks maybe?

Or maybe I should just apply your logic here. You're a complete ***. Sample size of one is good enough. Everyone here must be an *** as well.

Is this the kind of crap I can expect from this board in general, or was this an outlier on the bell curve?

~X~

 

Pravus Prime...Dude:
This reply was really bizarre to read. Come on Prime, your a moderator, not an assassin, I don't get the venom. Vues are cool, it's all good! Let folks drive them and we'll see what they're about.

Lighten Up and Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

 

You have not answered the questions:
Perhaps you didn't understand the question. Let's start with the relative power available from each:

• 170 hp ICE
• <5 hp BAS

The "help" appears to be in the noise of the ICE performance. It would be like a 5 year old kid deciding to help his father push a car. The kid pushing looks cute but has no appreciable effect compared to his dad. Let's try another approach to explaining the question.

Imagine the ICE and BAS go to lunch (aka., on the highway) and decide to split the $17.50 bill. The ICE lays down $17 and the BAS pays $.50. Unfortunately, the long wires and high currents from the battery in the rear cause $.05 to drop and roll under the table (aka., (I**2)R losses.)

The BAS appears impossibly small to make a significant highway contribution. But I look forward to some explanation that shows the laws of physics, fundamental engineering, have been suspended.

Bob Wilson

 

Actually it's much simpler than that. The VGL gets some aero improvements, low rolling resistance tires, mass reductions (much of which is offset by battery mass) and engine calibrations that the VUE does not get. And at highway cruising speeds the ICE doesn't have to work as hard and IS supplemented by some battery assist so that the ICE works even less, so yes the VGL gets better highway mileage than does the VUE. Now, don't go asking me about relative milli-Joule contributions to overcoming wind drag and tire resistance, 'cause I ain't in it that deep. When it's done, it tastes like soup, so I call it soup. I don't necessarily know what kind of potatoes are in it.

Peace,

Martin

 

What is it with people and there accusatory tones? Where's the courteous discussions? Where' the logical discourse?

So far, I've been insulted, accused, and derided all without any cause or justification. What exactly is this forum trying to promote?

Back to the question at hand. I didn't know you wanted numbers. If you want technical schematics on the VUE GL you can get them from the saturnfans site.

The BAS isn't a 5hp motor. It is a 20 HP motor. This motor contributes based on the current road conditions. For example, on flat highway it assists the ICE to maintain speed, thus consuming less fuel. It also assists on accelerations or elevated terrain.

Because it is relatively small, it doesn't contribute as much as a two-mode. For instance, there isn't enough HP to move the car on it's own reasonably. So no low powered all electric driving. This is why they city mileage isn't the greatest.

If we were to use your analogy correctly, the ICE and BAS go to lunch and the bill is $20. The ICE puts down around $17 and the BAS puts down around $3. This represents about 10% savings. Not a lot, but better than nothing.

However, due to the limited battery power, only under extremes will you see the full 20hp engine online (rapid acceleration onto the freeway for example). Most of the time the BAS is operating in the 5-10hp range, judging by the meter.

In a full hybrid like the FEH or HiHY, the ratio is much better. The electric motor is much more powerful and has a lot more battery to back it up.

As you can see, no suspensions of the laws of physics is required. Just the correct information. The BAS gives a modest boost, but nothing earth shattering. That's what the full hybrids are for.

~X~

 

Thanks Martin,

These are the types of changes that improve highway mileage. To the extent that VGL leads the way to improvements in this area, good deal. Once at speeds above ~45 mph, the keys are: (1) aerodynamic drag, (2) rolling resistance drag, and (3) ICE operation in efficient thermodynamic range(s).

What I've noticed is the ratio of hybridization, EV-to-ICE, is reflected in the improvements in the city-to-highway mileage. It is in urban environments that our hybrids can do a better job. So when I look at the BAS, it probably has utility with a stop-and-go driving profile, say a delivery cycle like a postal route. I just find it hard to see the BAS contributing to highway performance.

Bob Wilson

 

I agree that the BAS does not seem good for highway driving. While the motor may be rated for 20 HP, to get 20 HP you would need more battery than is in any of the BAS equiped vehicles. For example the motor in my camry is rated at somewhere around 100 HP. The battery on the other hand is only rated at 40 HP, so I don't get 100 HP, I get 40 HP. Now if I was to throw a bunch more batteries and heavier guage wiring in the car i could get 100 HP, but at the scrafice of weight which would more than likely lower my fuel economy.

I think the BAS would be a good system if it was included in every car sold with no fanfare about it's inclusion, but when you wave a huge flag around and proclaim it to be a wonderful hybrid, it will do more dis-service to the true hybrids that return good FE results.

OH, and for a comparison of hybrid costs:

FE XLT - $22,945
FEH - $25,320
Tax credit on FEH - $2,600
Delta between hybrid and ICE = ($225)
The hybrid costs less from day one, and to get a similarly equiped vehicle you must go to the XLT.

Hylander - $26,640
HiHy - $33,730
Tax credit on HiHy - $1,300 (today, was $2,600)
Delta between hybrid and V6 ICE = $5,790

I tried to get the modles equiped as close as possibly, but since I am no expert on these cars I don't know if one has options that the other does not have, but from what I can tell without a tax credit the ford hybrid caries a premium of about the same amount as the VUE GL carries over the non GL version. This makes the Escape a no brainer as far as which one you should buy. And this is coming from somebody that will never buy another Ford product again.

But on the other hand it seams the Toyota Hylander Hybrid is priced way too high.

 

martin:
My only *real* gripe about BAS is that it's just too small a system for a VUE. I can see it working just fine in an Aura or an Aevo. Or if BAS could be modified to have more "oomph" when put in larger vehicles (bigger motor / more batteries), that would be great.

 

The FEH was that cheap? Hmm. Maybe I should have stopped by the Ford dealer up here. At that price (and with maybe a nice buyout of my old vehicle) it would have put the FEH just within my range.

*sigh* Such is life. I also just checked the KBB on my old vehicle and I may have a question or two for my Saturn dealer. I'm still within my 30 days.

~X~

 

It should be possible. Browsing the web will turn up electric motors of higher HP that are about the same form factor as the one that is in there. I'm sure there are some mechanical issues that would prevent it from going to high. For example, electric motors have high torque so you wouldn't want a motor powerful enough to strip it off it's mounting.

The spare tire space has more than enough room for additional battery packs as well.

However, the real issue to work out is the electronics and the ECU programming to handle the new layout. Adding new hardware is fairly straightforward. The hard part is making sure it all plays nicely together.

For example, you wouldn't want a 40 hp boost off the line at a light. Nor do you want the system to basically end up trickle charging whenever regenerative braking is used.

Unfortunately, even a system as simple as the BAS is not as simple as it appears. You may be able to get away with adding more battery without the controller needing to be modified, but that totally depends on how the controller was programmed. If the controller reacts based on a percentage of battery power, you could add all the batteries you want. If it uses hard coded numbers (bad programming practice in general), then adding more batteries would be pointless as they would be "invisible" ot the controller.

Also, while buying an electric engine is easily doable, buying the battery pack is not. Cobasys doesn't sell the packs to the general public. In which case, you'd have to "make" one yourself or buy a suitable replacement from another company and figure out how to wire it together.

It's not impossible. In fact, I think Saturn could make a nice little side business performing and "upgrade" service. However, it is not trivial.

~X~